Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

John2 wrote:
I know that he appears to have had access to Papias, e.g., EH 3.39.1-2:


EH 3

1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenæus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him. These are the words of Irenæus.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

hakeem wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:38 am

John2 wrote:
I know that he appears to have had access to Papias, e.g., EH 3.39.1-2:


EH 3

1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenæus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him. These are the words of Irenæus.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

The passages you quoted do not really show that Eusebius had access to the supposed writings of Papias.

They show contradictions between Eusebius and Irenaeus.

According to EH 3.39.1-2, Irenaeus claimed Papias was a hearer of John but then the author immediately stated Papias said no such thing in the preface..

Who is right? Are both of them wrong?

Both the writings attributed to Eusebius and Irenaeus are known to contain bogus information about the names of early Christian writers, the contents and the dates of composition.

By the way, I have not been able to find anything in the writings attributed to Irenaeus where it is attested that Papias was a hearer of John.

4. And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled by him.


https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103533.htm

davidmartin wrote: what's the consensus on existence of the 'presbyter john' and him being the one Papias refers to?

Clement of Alex. seems to confirm his existence (through Eusebius again quoting him)
"Following the Gospel according to John, and in accordance with it, this Epistle also contains the spiritual principle.
What therefore he says, "from the beginning," the Presbyter explained to this effect"

and "And now, as the blessed Presbyter used to say, since the Lord, as the Apostle of the Almighty, was sent to the Hebrews, Paul, as having been sent to the Gentiles, did not subscribe himself apostle of the Hebrews, out of modesty and reverence for the Lord"

But it's not just from Papias, Clement also seems to mention him? If so possibly Clement was quoting from Papias when he said this

hakeem wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:52 pm
In fact virtually all the claims made by Eusebius about names of NT authors and dates of authorship have been discarded.

It would appear that Christian writers were simply inventing Christian writers to make it appear as if the Jesus cult was already in existence before c 70 CE.

perseusomega9 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:41 pm

I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:08 pm What does Eusebius (or anyone else) guessing who wrote the gospel of John (or any other NT writing) have to do with the dating of Papias? Do you think Irenaeus invented Papias and Eusebius expanded on it?

hakeem wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:29 pm

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:08 pm What does Eusebius (or anyone else) guessing who wrote the gospel of John (or any other NT writing) have to do with the dating of Papias? Do you think Irenaeus invented Papias and Eusebius expanded on it?

If we don't know if and when Papias lived then you would have to guess if he did live and if he did write and also guess when he did so.

Christian writers invented their own God Creator Jesus, Gospel authors and Epistle writers so I don't think it would be difficult for them to invent Papias.

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:08 pmWhether Papias existed or not, to judge from what Eusebius says about him and the context he places him in (Trajan's time) and the writings he is said to have known (Mark, Matthew, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation), I think he wrote (or is presented as having written) no later than Trajan's time.

hakeem wrote:Christian writers invented their own God Creator Jesus, Gospel authors and Epistle writers so I don't think it would be difficult for them to invent Papias.

John2 wrote:What purpose do you think it served Eusebius to say things about Papias that do not support orthodoxy?