Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

2 Cor 3 reads rather oddly. Is it a later forgery?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

In particular:

12 Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. 14 But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. 15 Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

Did Paul really say "the old covenant"?

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:15 pm 2 Cor 3 reads rather oddly. Is it a later forgery?
Did Paul really say "the old covenant"?

On quick examination, I can't find the 2 Cor 3:14 combination of "old" and "covenant" (τῆς παλαιᾶς διαθήκης) anywhere else in the NT. But the combination of "new" and "covenant" does appear in the near context: "And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant (καινῆς διαθήκης), not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6, Cf Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Heb 9:15 and 12:24).

I wonder if the the concept "old covenant" can be found in the OT or LXX.

There's lots of talk of covenants -old, new and better covenants- in Epistle to the Hebrews, especially chapters 7-10 and 12, at least.

7:22 Because of this oath [Ps 110.4 in v.21], Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant

8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

8:8b-12 = Jer. 31:31-34

8:13 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9 starts talking about the old covenant, the tabernacle set up, eg. the rooms, etc.. then

15 ... Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 10:16 has Jer. 31:33

Hebrews 12:23b ... You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel

[I wonder if Epistle to the Hebrews preceded some or all of the Paulin epistles, or was concurrent to them]

It seems odd to me that Paul would talk about an new and old covenant in 2 Cor, but not say anything like that in Romans. It seems like most of Paul's ideas are more plainly laid out in Romans. This seems like kind of a big deal, like something he would have reiterated in Romans if it were really a part of his thought.

I've always assumed that Hebrews was written by someone who was familiar with Paul's teachings and thus made use of them. As such we find things said in Hebrews that have also been said by Paul in his letters. In that case, it could make sense that the writer of Hebrews had read 2 Cor and was expanding on what Paul said there, if indeed it is actually authentic.

It just seems like quite a bold statement for Paul to make. It strikes as something I would expect to find in a later text, but maybe I'm wrong.

to gryan,

I wonder if the the concept "old covenant" can be found in the OT or LXX.

In the OT & LXX, there is only one covenant: the one (allegedly) received by Moses. So "old" cannot be expected.
The new covenant was introduced by Paul (and Hebrews), as (allegedly) proclaimed by Jesus.

I've always assumed that Hebrews was written by someone who was familiar with Paul's teachings and thus made use of them. As such we find things said in Hebrews that have also been said by Paul in his letters. In that case, it could make sense that the writer of Hebrews had read 2 Cor and was expanding on what Paul said there, if indeed it is actually authentic.

According to my research, it was the opposite: Paul became familiar with Hebrews and thus made use of it.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:48 pm to gryan,

I wonder if the the concept "old covenant" can be found in the OT or LXX.

In the OT & LXX, there is only one covenant: the one (allegedly) received by Moses. So "old" cannot be expected.
The new covenant was introduced by Paul (and Hebrews), as (allegedly) proclaimed by Jesus.

I've always assumed that Hebrews was written by someone who was familiar with Paul's teachings and thus made use of them. As such we find things said in Hebrews that have also been said by Paul in his letters. In that case, it could make sense that the writer of Hebrews had read 2 Cor and was expanding on what Paul said there, if indeed it is actually authentic.

According to my research, it was the opposite: Paul became familiar with Hebrews and thus made use of it.

Cordially, Bernard

What research is that? I'd certainly be interested to what what the argument is for that.

You might be interested in the posts of DC Hindley, and see what he has to say about 'christ'ology being a later addition to the Epistles.

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:15 pm 2 Cor 3 reads rather oddly. Is it a later forgery?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

In particular:

12 Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. 14 But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. 15 Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

Did Paul really say "the old covenant"?

It's also a fun exercise to substitute YHWH for Lord in Paul, and also read these terms as nomina sacra (lord, jesus, christ, spirit).

to gryan,

What research is that? I'd certainly be interested to what what the argument is for that.

Read whole of http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html "The beginning of Christianity (up to 57)"
The group of Seven (proto-Christianity)=> the church of Antioch (Jewish Christianity)=> Paul of Tarsus (embryonic Gentile Christianity)=> Apollos of Alexandria (full Gentile Christianity)
And
http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html then "find" on: 3. The Corinthians letters and start from that.

Cordially, Bernard

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:36 pm ... we find things said in Hebrews that have also been said by Paul in his letters ...

I'm open to either direction of concepts, or concurrent concepts being espoused differently. I need to finish looking at Hebrews but the impression I've got so far is that Hebrews is a preliminary or fundamental yet superficial overview of Christian doctrine without much reference to key persons and without much depth to it.