Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:28 pm
... Philo of Alexandria, an orthodox Jew... inadvertently provided Gentile Christianity (through Apollos, also of Alexandria; the author of 'Hebrews') and Paul with many Gentile tenets ...
Which was it Bernard? Was Philo an orthodox Jew? or a Gentile? (a Gentile subversive, perhaps?)
Philo of Alexandria was a Jew, as I wrote to Cora:
Philo was not a loner but well esteemed among the Jews in Alexandria. The concepts of the above quotes would have been believed by Jews there.
to Hakeem,
I don't care about "sons of God". Actually even Paul used "sons of God" for his Christians (Rom 8:14, Rom 8:19, Phl 2:15, Gal 4:6).
I was looking at "the Son of God".
Before that you have only Justin, the apologist, died 165. Can there be anything found out before that? Actually NO.
What about Josephus, Papias, Aristides, Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus?
What about gospels elements in the Didache, Barnabas' epistle and Revelation, all of them written before Domitian was killed (in 96 CE)?
About Josephus: the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, from Antiquities (XX, IX, 1), published in 93 CE.
About Aristides: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/aristides.html The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven.
About Papias: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/papias.html Mark ... wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ.
About the Didache: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil)
There are more gospels elements in it. See here for those and the dating: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#didache
About Revelation: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html then "find" on: earth will mourn
1:7 "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him[from GJohn?]. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. ..." (similar to Mt 24:30)
There are more gospels elements in it.
Bernard,
Like I said: anything about the son of god cannot come from the jews. And it didn't. It came from Paul, in Turkey. And it was not about Jahweh, it was about the gnostic god (god the father), who has a son. (You see this was taken in by the catholic church). And Philo has nothing to do with it. Philo was a jewish philosopher, member of some school or academy in Alexandrie. Like we don't know philosophy professors from the university, so the people did not know him. He was interested in Gnosticism all around him, and so he tried to make a connection between the gnostic Logos and the jewish archangel (whoever that may be). That is what he did. And he said the Logos, which can absolutely not be translated by Word. Maybe he did, but than he did not understand the principle. He died in 50, which was 40 years before Paul came along.
Cora
hakeem,
I have already answered you questions before. Why do you come with the same things? The gospels are very much alike for gospels which are so-called written independently by different people. You can see for yourself that they are NOT written independently by different people at different dates. And so detailed after 40 or more years, knowing exactly what he said. Those kind of exact memories last 5 years at the most. It is a complete fabrication. Mark has no birth story, and it was presented by Irenaeus as a heretical gospel because of that. It was probably meant to lure gnostic Christians to their side. If you say that Paul did not exist, we are done talking. Paul is about the only real person in the whole NT. All the others don't exist. Cora.
Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:02 am
to Hakeem,
I don't care about "sons of God". Actually even Paul used "sons of God" for his Christians (Rom 8:14, Rom 8:19, Phl 2:15, Gal 4:6).
I was looking at "the Son of God".
Bernard,
You are always behaving difficult. All these quotes and persons you give are all forgeries. The didache not, that is OK. Josephus is a very obvious forgery, the catholic gospels were not there yet. Aristides is a catholic, must be written after 200, or being inserted. Etc. Etc. Everything with Christ in it is a forgery. Paul introduced this word after 90 and it was chrest. Christ is a forgery anyway. And Nero? You should know better. The first story appeared in 72, chrestians come from Paul, after 90. So before 90 nobody used the word Christ/chrest. Impossible. Wherever it is found, it is a forgery. It was Paul who came with the son of god, not the jews he had the story from. They were not talking about the son of god at all. They don't have a son of god of course. Say that one time, and you get stoned. They were also not talking about a messiah, or a king. You see? The gospels are fake. Fabricated by Irenaeus. From the gospel of Marcion, the OT and Josephus and Justin. greetings, Cora
cora wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:30 pm
hakeem,
I have already answered you questions before. Why do you come with the same things? The gospels are very much alike for gospels which are so-called written independently by different people. You can see for yourself that they are NOT written independently by different people at different dates. And so detailed after 40 or more years, knowing exactly what he said. Those kind of exact memories last 5 years at the most. It is a complete fabrication. Mark has no birth story, and it was presented by Irenaeus as a heretical gospel because of that. It was probably meant to lure gnostic Christians to their side. If you say that Paul did not exist, we are done talking. Paul is about the only real person in the whole NT. All the others don't exist. Cora.
You appear to be confused. gMark was not presented as an heretical writing in "Against Heresies" but as the teachings of Peter recorded by his disciple Mark.
Against Heresies 3.`1-2
Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
2. These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ the Son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.
Cora wrote:... If you say that Paul did not exist, we are done talking. Paul is about the only real person in the whole NT. All the others don't exist. Cora.
Which Paul was real? There were multiple writers who used the name of Paul. I know the so-called Pauline writers were liars when it is claimed that Paul heard from their dead Lord Jesus and that he stayed with Peter and met an apostle called James the Lord's brother.
How is it a real Paul met the non-existent Peter and James??
If Paul was the only real person in the whole NT then the so-called Pauline Epistle are essentially a pack of lies.
Like I said: anything about the son of god cannot come from the jews. And it didn't. It came from Paul, in Turkey. And it was not about Jahweh, it was about the gnostic god (god the father), who has a son. (You see this was taken in by the catholic church). And Philo has nothing to do with it. Philo was a jewish philosopher, member of some school or academy in Alexandrie. Like we don't know philosophy professors from the university,
That's quite a bunch of speculations. Your wild opinions are not evidence.
and so he tried to make a connection between the gnostic Logos and the jewish archangel (whoever that may be)
Logos is not gnostic. It is used in gJohn as such:
1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word ['λόγος': lógos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God;
all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father
And he said the Logos, which can absolutely not be translated by Word
Yes it can.
He died in 50, which was 40 years before Paul came along.
hakeem,
Irenaeus is lying as he writes. He is building the catholic church. He is inventing it all. Those gospel-writers do not exist, HE has invented them, He is the one coming with those names. And yes he does present Mark as a heretical gospel, not in his book, but to the church. Because he has no virgin Mary and is talking about a human being. Don't worry Irenaeus has written it himself.
There are no gospels with a name known before that (185), only the gospel of Marcion arriving in the church in 144 (says Irenaeus). The church had then only the OT, which was their book. Jahweh-lovers. As I read from you, the gospels are about Jahweh/the creator god. And if you don't believe that, you are a heretic.
This is all against Marcion (and Paul) who do not worship the jewish god. The whole catholic church was set up after Marcion and his churches had become popular (around 155/160). Until that they were OT. It was done to protect the OT, the book of the jews. Their god was highest, their god was the only one etc. Well he was for the jews, but not for other people. They thought it should. Therefore they (Irenaeus) wrote the NT. Irenaeus placed everything back to the years 30 - 70. This has now become 70-100, which gives problems. The 4 gospel-writers are in the Acts (written by Irenaeus and completely fake). The whole NT is fake and forgery. They won because of Constantine.
Therefore we have a religion of the old and the new testament. Instead of the religion Paul wanted and set up: a religion with jesus as god and without the OT. Take your head out of Irenaeus, and don't believe him, or you'll be never rid of the catholic church, which consists of lies.
Very good questions about Paul. There are only 2 persons using the name Paul: Paul himself (10 letters) and Irenaeus (the rest). So they split up Paul and Marcion as wide as possible. Marcion went from 125 to 145. Paul went from 90-120 back to 35 and they made him theirs. To make this function Irenaeus forged Paul's letters with an enormous 30%. Paul is made a jew (which he wasn't), he was made to talk about a human being (which he didn't), Irenaeus put his own theology in the letters, Paul is talking about the OT a lot (which he didn't). The letters are ruined. One clever forgery is "the brother of the lord". Paul preaches a god, and gods don't have brothers. With this forgery Irenaeus places Paul back to 35, AND uses him to prove that Jesus was a real person!! (clever guy). But James and Kephas (not Peter, another forgery) do exist. James and Kephas belong to a community which started after 70, who wanted to reform Judaism, and not a little bit. To spread their ideas they have written a (fictional) story which plays in the year 30. It was read out loud to the people by their messengers, whom THEY called apostles. Paul was appointed apostle there and got a copy of their story (and did something totally else with it). They broke up forgood. The so-called 2nd visit is a forgery. This fictional story was not about a real person, and his name was not Jesus. It was about a prophet. And there it all began.
Since they began in 70, I place Paul and James and Kephas at about 85/90. The letter of James in the NT can be of that James.
So before 70 there was absolutely nothing. You said, he visits after their Lord Jesus had just died. That is the whole meaning of it, that you think that. In reality we are in the year 90, and their was no Lord Jesus, there was only a story about a prophet. The Lord Jesus comes from Paul, only he wrote Isu. Jesus is a forgery. Paul "stole" their story for his own purpose, but his purpose was good. A new religion without Jahweh, if that is allowed. It wasn't. He was taken in by the church of rome and completely changed. The letters seem to have been fluid, but that cannot be seen anymore. After Constantine came, his communities were wiped out. I feel very much sorry for Paul, he had deserved much better. The so-called 12 disciples/apostles are invented by Irenaeus, to build the authority of the church on.
It took me a few years working day and night to unravel this whole. I am telling the truth and I can prove it also, but that takes much more text. I did not want this to be the outcome, but this is what I found. It is correct. And now I found it nobody is listening, and of course nobody will publish it. Christianity is an enormous scam from the church of rome. Meant to wipe out Gnosticism, Marcion and Paul. Ever seen a statue of Paul somewhere? I didn,t think so. He was originally the enemy. At least he existed. We cannot say that of Peter and the rest.
So Jesus did not exist, he is a character in a fictional story written after 70, and his name was not Jesus.
I have done my best to tell you what I know. Don't get angry, think about it.
all the best, Cora.