Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

I skim through this blog post about the Josephus and Paul shipwrecks, and I see commenters are saying or implying Josephus's life and Acts are based on some unmentioned third sources from which both borrow material. I agree something's borrowed. Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I really fail to see where those third sources are so I have to tentatively assume there are no such third sources. So if something is borrowed, it's not from a third source. Since of the two (Josephus and Paul) Josephus is more likely to have existed, then the safer bet is Paul is based on Josephus instead of the other way around.

http://vridar.org/2007/04/25/the-shipwr ... ul-part-3/

No.

Argument from ignorance
Argumentum ad ignorantiam

There are lots of stories of shipwrecks in ancient literature. It would be almost impossible for any literate person not to have some knowledge of the common formula they use.

neilgodfrey wrote:There are lots of stories of shipwrecks in ancient literature. It would be almost impossible for any literate person not to have some knowledge of the common formula they use.

But I suppose not all those shipwreck stories have those 12 coincidences listed on your blog post. Am I right/wrong? So the question is why there are those 12 coincidences between the Josephus and Paul shipwrecks. It's not just an ancient-literarure shipwreck formula that they have in common with other ancient-literatire shipwrecks, but also details about those shipwrecks that only those two have in common, and not other shipwrecks.

I don't recall off hand how many of those details are shared with other shipwreck stories but I would not just assume anything without checking. Surely the simplest explanation is that one author based his account on that of the other. Remember Mr Occam is watching us.

ghost wrote:

neilgodfrey wrote:There are lots of stories of shipwrecks in ancient literature. It would be almost impossible for any literate person not to have some knowledge of the common formula they use.

But I suppose not all those shipwreck stories have those 12 coincidences listed on your blog post. Am I right/wrong? So the question is why there are those 12 coincidences between the Josephus and Paul shipwrecks. It's not just an ancient-literarure shipwreck formula that they have in common with other ancient-literatire shipwrecks, but also details about those shipwrecks that only those two have in common, and not other shipwrecks.

Don't stop at shipwrecks when looking at parallels between the NT Paul and the Josephan writer.

Both Paul and Josephus were Roman citizens.
Both Paul and Josephus were Pharisees
Both spent time as Roman prisoners.
Paul was originally named Saul.
Titus Flavius Josephus was formally Joseph ben Matityahu.
Paul was a former persecutor of Christians.
Josephus had been an enemy of Rome.
Paul said that circumcision was not required for Gentile Christians.
Josephus maintained that non-Jews did not require circumcision in order to stay among Jews.
Paul was 'caught away to the third heaven'
Josephus had prophetic dreams.
Paul made a defense of Christianity before Agrippa II.
Josephus appealed to Agrippa II to attest the truth of what he had written in his history of the Roman/Jewish wars.
Both had a friend named Epaphroditus.

Don't stop with the Paul and Josephus parallels either. The NT Paul has parallels with the gospel literary Jesus figure.

Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

[/tr] [td]A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71[/td] [td]A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10[/td] [/tr] [td]Centurian: Luke 23:47[/td] [td]Agrippa: Acts 26:31[/td] [/tr]

Jesus	Paul
1. "Passion Predictions"	1."Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22	Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34	Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31	Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address	2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38	Acts 20:17-35
3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose	3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39	Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus	4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64	Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trials" of Jesus	5. Four "Trials" of Paul
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5	B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12	C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25	D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence	6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22)	Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14	Festus: Acts 25:25
7. Mob Demands Execution	7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18	Acts 22:22

At least one thing is indicated by these parallels - the NT figure of Paul is a literary creation. As for Josephus - my thinking is that 'Josephus' is a pseudonym - and that many of the Josephan stories are just that stories. Hence, making any case for a Paul/Josephus identification is pointless. What one can propose is that the NT writers and the Josephan writer were working with the same agenda. An agenda which, to my mind, had its raison d'être, in Hasmonean history.

I am not impressed with your "parallels."

When shipwrecked, Josephus was not a Roman citizen, and was not an enemy of Rome- this just for an example.

What a lot of folks don;t realize, or don;t ascribe to (especially if you denigrate ACTS as history) is that both Paul and Josephus were in Rome in A.D. 63. The Jewish community was a relatively small one, and they could have interacted in some way. Luke, presumably with Paul, could have mixed up stories about the emissary Josephus with those of Jesus as he wrote his Gospel.

steve43 wrote:I am not impressed with your "parallels."

When shipwrecked, Josephus was not a Roman citizen, and was not an enemy of Rome- this just for an example.

And I never said he was a Roman citizen at the time of the shipwreck.....did you actually read what I wrote? I wrote: "Don't stop at shipwrecks"

What a lot of folks don;t realize, or don;t ascribe to (especially if you denigrate ACTS as history) is that both Paul and Josephus were in Rome in A.D. 63. The Jewish community was a relatively small one, and they could have interacted in some way. Luke, presumably with Paul, could have mixed up stories about the emissary Josephus with those of Jesus as he wrote his Gospel.

Really? And you can provide evidence for the historicity of Paul....along with evidence that he was in Rome in 63 c.e. Great imagination here.....or is it wishful thinking...

steve43 wrote:I am not impressed with your "parallels."
When shipwrecked, Josephus was not a Roman citizen, and was not an enemy of Rome- this just for an example.

True. The parallel will only work if Josephus was a Roman citizen, a Christian, and had been on trial and appealed to Caesar, and if his name was Paul.

Most of the evidence for Paul is contained in ACTS and the Letters- oops, forgot your don't accept them!

We are at an impasse.