Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in NT Galatians

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rgprice,
As I go into in Deciphering the Gospels, the fact is that Acts of the Apostles does NOT reflect this prior trip nor the idea that there was any brother of Jesus named James.
But that meeting is mentioned in Acts 9-26-30 with many embellishments (those suspected one by me are in italics).
And when he was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. And he was with them going in and going out at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him. And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus [in Cilicia]

Compare with Gal 1:17b-21
... I returned unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now touching the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Then I came unto the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

About "there was any brother of Jesus named James". Why do you expect to see that in Acts? Acts embellished but not necessarily told everything (if the author knew!).
Another argument from silence, a specialty of Mythicists.

Cordially, Bernard
rgprice
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by rgprice »

Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:35 pm to rgprice,
As I go into in Deciphering the Gospels, the fact is that Acts of the Apostles does NOT reflect this prior trip nor the idea that there was any brother of Jesus named James.
But that meeting is mentioned in Acts 9-26-30 with many embellishments (those suspected one by me are in italics).
And when he was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. And he was with them going in and going out at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him. And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus [in Cilicia]

Compare with Gal 1:17b-21
... I returned unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now touching the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Then I came unto the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

About "there was any brother of Jesus named James". Why do you expect to see that in Acts? Acts embellished but not necessarily told everything (if the author knew!).
Another argument from silence, a specialty of Mythicists.

Cordially, Bernard
Especially given that the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, not to mention that Paul met the brother of Jesus is a pretty big deal. You really think there is nothing unusual about the fact that the writer of Acts clearly read Galatians (evidenced in multiple places) and said nothing about Jesus having a brother named James or mentioning that Paul met with the brother of Jesus? That's pretty astounding!
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:47 pmEspecially given that the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, not to mention that Paul met the brother of Jesus is a pretty big deal. You really think there is nothing unusual about the fact that the writer of Acts clearly read Galatians (evidenced in multiple places) and said nothing about Jesus having a brother named James or mentioning that Paul met with the brother of Jesus? That's pretty astounding!
The later we date Acts, the less astounding that becomes. There were plenty of Christians by a certain point in time who were downright eager for Jesus not to have a brother. It is not entirely clear to me when exactly that trend began, partly because some of the most important texts (such as the Protevangelium) are themselves hard to date.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rgprice,
Especially given that the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, not to mention that Paul met the brother of Jesus is a pretty big deal. You really think there is nothing unusual about the fact that the writer of Acts clearly read Galatians (evidenced in multiple places) and said nothing about Jesus having a brother named James or mentioning that Paul met with the brother of Jesus? That's pretty astounding!
I don't think the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, nor other epistles such as 1 & 2 Corinthians:
http://historical-jesus.info/76.html
http://historical-jesus.info/75.html
Certainly, there are common elements between Paul's epistles and Acts, but also there are many huge differences.

Cordially, Bernard
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:47 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:35 pm to rgprice,
As I go into in Deciphering the Gospels, the fact is that Acts of the Apostles does NOT reflect this prior trip nor the idea that there was any brother of Jesus named James.
But that meeting is mentioned in Acts 9-26-30 with many embellishments (those suspected one by me are in italics).
And when he was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. And he was with them going in and going out at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him. And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus [in Cilicia]

Compare with Gal 1:17b-21
... I returned unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now touching the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Then I came unto the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

About "there was any brother of Jesus named James". Why do you expect to see that in Acts? Acts embellished but not necessarily told everything (if the author knew!).
Another argument from silence, a specialty of Mythicists.

Cordially, Bernard
Especially given that the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, not to mention that Paul met the brother of Jesus is a pretty big deal. You really think there is nothing unusual about the fact that the writer of Acts clearly read Galatians (evidenced in multiple places) and said nothing about Jesus having a brother named James or mentioning that Paul met with the brother of Jesus? That's pretty astounding!
Robert, do you agree with Bernard that Acts 9.26-30 is describing the same trip to Jerusalem that Galatians 1.18-24 is?
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by hakeem »

rgprice wrote: Especially given that the writer of Acts had knowledge of Galatians, not to mention that Paul met the brother of Jesus is a pretty big deal. You really think there is nothing unusual about the fact that the writer of Acts clearly read Galatians (evidenced in multiple places) and said nothing about Jesus having a brother named James or mentioning that Paul met with the brother of Jesus? That's pretty astounding!
Actually, it appears to be the other way. The so-called Pauline writers must have known or most likely knew of Acts of the Apostles and gLuke. The very fact that the Epistle writers claimed to have revelations from the resurrected Lord Jesus about fictitious events found only in gLuke and Acts of the Apostles show that he was aware of those books.

The story about the apostles Peter and James staying in Jerusalem after the resurrection of Jesus is a fiction story found only in gLuke and Acts of the Apostles.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:4
And, being assembled together with them,commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

It must be obvious that the resurrected told no-one to stay in Jerusalem and even so it is contradicted in gMark, gMatthew and gJohn. The Matthean and Markan Jesus told the apostles to meet him in Galilee after the resurrection and the resurrected Johanine Jesus was with the apostles in Galilee having a "beach party" and "fish fry".

Mark 14:28---- But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Matthew 26:32----But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
John 21:1......... Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias....

There is nothing about the apostles staying in Jerusalem after the resurrection in the other NT Gospels.

It can be clearly seen that the Pauline writer in Galatians was using gLuke and Acts of the Apostles.
gryan
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by gryan »

On Carrier's qualifications, and on the "experts" he cites for his interpretation of "James, the Lord's brother" in Gal 1, here is some useful information that I have copied from a post by "Abaddon" on the Ehrman blog on the thread titled "Carrier and James the Brother of Jesus":

Abaddon November 8, 2016 at 12:22 am - Reply

Carrier lists his own qualifications in Greek on his blog as such: “I took a full graduate course in textual criticism under Leonardo Taran at Columbia University, as well as courses in ancient Greek dialects and linguistics and a year long course in papyrology under Roger Bagnall (likewise at Columbia), plus many course-years in Greek and Latin translation and documents. I also presented a paper on textual criticism at an academic conference (at UC Berkeley, but during my tenure at Columbia)”. Some samples of his graduate work in Greek are posted on his website: http://www.richardcarrier.info/papyrus/

L. Paul Trudinger is published at The Evangelical Quarterly... note that this is not a mythicist “twisting” the Greek to fit his needs.

Τhe late James L Boyer, another non-mythicist, also argued this kind of exegesis of this verse in Grace Theological Journal 4.2 (1983) on page 180 (https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hi ... ls-gtj.htm): “εἰ μή < = adversative conjunction 'but' – It is readily admitted that εἰ μή may often be translated 'but' or 'but only' in English, particularly in those instances belonging to the last-mentioned category… Gal 1:19 is a passage where the difference is of considerable importance, but the issue must be settled on other considerations than the meaning of εἰ μή”

Abaddon November 8, 2016 at 11:01 am - Reply
Here are the citations of the actual literature referenced:

L. Paul Trudinger, ‘[Heteron de tōn apostolōn ouk eidon, ei mē iakōbon]: A Note on Galatians I 19’, Novum Testamentum 17 (July 1975), pp. 200-202.

George Howard, ‘Was James an Apostle? A Reflection on a New Proposal for Gal. I 19’, Novum Testamentum 19 (January 1977), pp. 63-64.

Hans Dieter Betz, Galatians: A Commentary on Paul’s Letter to the Churches in Galatia (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress
Press, 1979), p. 78.
rgprice
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by rgprice »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:34 pm do you agree with Bernard that Acts 9.26-30 is describing the same trip to Jerusalem that Galatians 1.18-24 is?
Sort of. The question is, what did Galatians look like when the writer of Acts read it?

The first issue is, acknowledging that the writer of Acts used the Pauline letters. The Acts Seminar emphatically concludes that the writer of Acts used Paul's letters. Joseph Tyson makes the case in Marcion and Luke Acts that the writer made extensive use of Galatians, pointing out that Acts 15 is an exact mirror image of Galatians, that turns the meeting in Galatians 2 upside down. Tyson notes:

Altogether Pervo treats some 86/87 places in Acts that exhibit traces of Pauline letters, including Romans, 1 Cor, 2 Cor, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thess. The presence of Ephesians and Colossians is significant ... it means that Luke wrote after the publication of the duetero-Pauline letters and that, unlike modern scholars, he was unable to distinguish between [them].

Citing Pervo on Acts 15:
To put it rather sharply, in the matters of the dispute at Antioch Luke has turned Galatians 2 upside down. Galatians appears to be his major source, but what he claims is quite opposed to what Paul said in Galatians.

And:
Despite the present consensus about the nonuse of the Pauline letters in Acts, Enslin, Walker, Leppa, Pervo and other scholars have succeeded in mounting a serious counterargument. In my judgement they have shown that there is now sufficient reason to question the usual scholarly conviction that Acts was written in ignorance of the Pauline letters.


So the first question is, did Luke use Paul's letters when he wrote Acts? I believe strongly that he did. The second question is, what form of the letters did he use? The third question will be, what was his agenda?

As for the form of the letters that he used, if we work from the position that Luke/Acts is a counter to Marcion's Evangelion/Apostolikon, with GLuke being essentially built on top of Marcion's Evangelion, then there is a reasonable assumption that Luke was simply using the Apostolikon as his source of Pauline letters, performing the same treatment on them that he did on the Evangelion, which is to say, taking Marcion's own work and trying to turn it upside down to show that his own scriptures work against him.

If that's true, then perhaps that explains why he makes no mention of James being a brother of Jesus, because that passage didn't exist in Marcion's Apostolikon. But if Luke is working from an "orthodox" collection, assuming that such a thing existed at that time, one would expect that the passage about James would have been present under the assumption that the "orthodox" collection looked the same then as it does now. Yet its also possible that an orthodox collection existed, but it still didn't have the "James, the Lord's brother" passage in it yet. The question then would be, what was missing, just "the Lord's brother" (or v19-20) or was all of Gal 1:18-24 missing?

I'm not set on either conclusion, I just think its possible that all of Gal 1 18:24 was missing. However, its also possible that v18:24 was there, and just "the Lord's brother" (or v19-20) was missing.

So we have several possibilities:
1) Luke used the Apostolikon, in which Gal 1 18:24 was most likely missing, or at least v19-20.
BeDuhn
1.13–17 Tertullian, Marc. 5.2.7, 5.3.5 (v. 17). In 5.2.7, Tertullian refers
vaguely to this section of the letter: “After that, as he briefly describes
the course of his conversion from persecutor to apostle, he confirms
what is written in the Acts of the Apostles.” The quotation of v. 17 in
Tertullian, Marc., 5.3.5 is more exact.
Gal 1.18–24 is unattested.

2) Luke used an orthodox version of Galatians in which Gal 1.18–24 was missing.
3) Luke used an orthodox version of Galatians in which Gal 1.18–24 was present, but the phrase "the Lord's brother" was missing (or v19-20)
4) Luke used an orthodox version of Galatians in which the phrase "the Lord's brother" was present.
5) Luke made no use of any Pauline letters.

Galatians 1:
13 For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. 15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.) 21 .Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia 22 I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which are in Christ; 23 but they only kept hearing, “The man who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they were glorifying God because of me.


Acts 9:
26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried repeatedly to associate with the disciples; and yet they were all afraid of him, as they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus at Damascus. 28 And he was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 And he was talking and arguing with the Hellenistic Jews; but they were attempting to put him to death. 30 Now when the brothers learned of it, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus.

The detail about Damascus surely comes from Galatians. The rest is very hard to say, given the fact that Luke was clearly manipulating his source and not necessarily following it. One can presume that if Gal 1:18-24 were written based on Acts, that the interpolator would have made it match Acts more closely, so that seems out, however it could still have been written after Acts by someone who hadn't read Acts. The fact that Paul said he only met Peter and James is contradicted by Acts saying he met with "the disciples".

Tarsus is in Cilicia, so that seems to be a tie between the two. Tarsus is clearly a contrived location, attempting to associate Paul with a Roman background, but it is consistent with Galatians in terms of being in Cilicia. So that supports Luke having read v21.

The agenda of Luke was anti-Marcionite. Showing that Jesus had a brother would seem to be a big deal. Furthermore, by the late second century it was being claimed that the leader of the Jerusalem church was "the Lord's brother". Clearly Luke never made that claim. Such a claim is unattested until Hegesippus. Luke does not support the claim that James was "the Lord's brother."

So the fact that Acts never introduced a brother of Jesus named James, nor indicates that Paul ever met the brother of Jesus, has to be explained.

Working from the view that the writer of Luke had read Galatians, the fact that Luke never mentions Paul meeting the brother of Jesus, or that James the leader of the Jerusalem church was a brother of Jesus, has to be explained either by concluding that the passage didn't exist in the version of Galatians that Luke read or that Luke read the passage and consciously decided never to mention that James was a brother of Jesus or that Paul had meet a brother of Jesus, whom Peter and others would have also known too.

So what is the case for Luke having read the passage but decided not to make use of it? This seems particularly odd given his anti-Marcionite agenda, in which identifying familial relations with Jesus would be a significant anti-Marcionite claim. What is more likely: that he read it and decided not to mention it, that it wasn't present in his version of Galatians, or that he read it but didn't interpret it as meaning that James was a literal bother of Jesus (though everyone after him did)?

When you see a passage that clearly causes so much confusion, and its unattested by what appears to be our earliest witness to Galatians 1, and it was not present in Marcion's version of Galatians, that's a significant reason to suspect that the passage is a later interpolation. Not to mention that it's followed by "I swear I'm not lying!".

This is perfectly fine:
18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which are in Christ; 23 but they only kept hearing, “The man who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they were glorifying God because of me.
In fact it could have been in Marcion's version and not warranted a mention. However I like BeDuhn's reconstruction too:

15 But when God, who had separated me from my mother’s womb and called (me) through his favor, thought (it) good 16 to reveal his child in me, so that I might proclaim him among the nations, I did not present myself immediately to flesh and blood, 17 neither did I go
up into Jerusalem to] those who were emissaries before me, [but . . .2 1. . .] after fourteen years I went up to Jerusalem . . .2. . . [And I laid before them the proclamation that I am declaring among the nations . . .], in order that I not somehow run or have run pointlessly.

Last edited by rgprice on Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by hakeem »

Ben C. Smith wrote: The later we date Acts, the less astounding that becomes. There were plenty of Christians by a certain point in time who were downright eager for Jesus not to have a brother. It is not entirely clear to me when exactly that trend began, partly because some of the most important texts (such as the Protevangelium) are themselves hard to date.
Your argument only serves to discredit the credibility of Christian writings. If Christians were eager to falsify the genealogy of the family of their own Lord and Savior Jesus then what is found in the NT cannot be accepted unless corroborated by independent non-apologetic sources.

No independent source identified a character called Jesus of Nazareth, his mother, father or brother.
gryan
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Carrier and "experts" who argue for two Jameses in Galatians

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:12 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:34 pm do you agree with Bernard that Acts 9.26-30 is describing the same trip to Jerusalem that Galatians 1.18-24 is?
Sort of. The question is, what did Galatians look like when the writer of Acts read it?
Re: Gal 1:19
ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον, εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Κυρίου.

According to L. PAUL TRUDINGER (in an exegetical article cited favorably by Carrier) Paul's meaning in Gal. i 19 is:

"Other than the apostles I saw none except James, the Lord's brother."

In this reading, Paul did see apostles plural, which is consistent with Acts 9: 26-27,

Saul in Jerusalem

26 When Saul arrived in Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. 27 Then Barnabas brought him to the apostles (plural) and described how Saul had seen the Lord, who spoke to him on the road to Damascus, and how Saul had spoken boldly in that city in the name of Jesus. (Borean Study Bible)

In this reading, Paul does not regard James, the Lord's brother as one of the "apostles."

----------

In my own ongoing re-reading of NT Galatians (as I see it this morning), "James the Lord's brother" (Gal 1) is the "James" in the phrase "the men from James" (Gal 2) who is associated with "the circumcision" who intimidated Cephus, but is not the to be confused with the "James" of the "esteemed pillars" ("James, Cephas and John"). Also, "the false brothers" (Gal 2) are interpreted as "the men from James". So they came in from outside the inner circle, and were not invited in by any of the pillars. I also think that by his way of speaking, Paul is writing against the argument made by some that "James, the Lord's brother" was an apostle. Paul regarded him both as a "pseudo-Apostle" and as "the Lord's brother" in the sphere of "flesh and blood" (a phrase that for Paul, in 1 Cor 15, carries a connotation of "perishable" rather than "imperishable.")

In this scenario, the reading of Gal 1:19 proposed by TRUDINGER (and Carrier) is a pretty good fit!

Is there any reason why the author of Acts might have erased this "James, the brother of the Lord" as I have interpreted him--this "James" was false-apostle, who inspired false-brothers, but was also, as suggested by GMark, a literal same-womb "brother" of Jesus "the Lord"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_and ... 20of%20God.

I think the answer to my rhetorical question is Yes. The author of Acts did have some reason to follow the author of GLuke who choose to erase GMark's explicit naming of "James" as one of the "brothers" in the group called "the mother and brothers of Jesus" (Acts 1, Cf Luke 8).
Last edited by gryan on Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply