Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

"Forty years after Master Fard Muhammad's disappearance without a trace, Warith Deen even claimed that he spoke regularly to Fard, but not in a "spooky way" -- he just picked up a phone and called the man."

http://www.vice.com/read/remembering-ma ... d-muhammad

neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?

theomise wrote:

neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?

How so?

Specifically, comparing Nation of Islam circa AD 2014 to Christianity circa AD 114...

1) Can we empirically establish a quantitative difference in growth rate?
2) To the extent that NoI growth has been limited, to what extent is that limitation attributable to the fact that in its current form it confines itself to black separatists in an African American context... versus, the fact of having a particular type of origin story?

neilgodfrey wrote:

theomise wrote:

neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?

How so?

Specifically, comparing Nation of Islam circa AD 2014 to Christianity circa AD 114...

1) Can we empirically establish a quantitative difference in growth rate?
2) To the extent that NoI growth has been limited, to what extent is that limitation attributable to the fact that in its current form it confines itself to black separatists in an African American context... versus, the fact of having a particular type of origin story?

There are many "modern" cases where persons have been considered god or messiahs in their lifetimes/after death but I don't know of any that produce the kinds of evidence we have for early Christianity. Those cases I am aware of that produce some sort of followup movement are actually branch movements of an already established religion. The religion that is expanding in Fard's wake is a form of Islam. Allah is the centre of its worship, not Fard. It's possible, I imagine, to become a member of NoI and continue in it with little more than passing thought given to Fard. In the statement of beliefs on the NoI website Fard only gets a single mention in passing. I can be corrected if I'm wrong but NoI looks to me like first and foremost a form of Islamic movement just as Mormonism was a form of Christianity. In the latter Jesus Christ far outshines Joseph Smith as their centre of worship just as Allah is the centre of worship in NoI.

The growth is a form of Christian or Islamic revival with the historical names being little more than triggers for that larger faith. No?

The religion that is expanding in Fard's wake is a form of Islam. Allah is the centre of its worship, not Fard.

theomise wrote: But is it any more a 'form of Islam' than Christianity was a 'form of Judaism' circa 114AD?

neilgodfrey wrote:

theomise wrote: But is it any more a 'form of Islam' than Christianity was a 'form of Judaism' circa 114AD?

1) This is where the comparison begins to break down. I think Judaism in the second temple era and beyond (into the mid/late second century even) was not a "monolithic" religion as Judaism clearly was from the fourth century on and as Christianity and Islam are.

2) By our standards of what constitutes a separate religion then certainly Christianity with its worship of Christ from its very earliest decades as the creator and sustainer of the cosmos and personal mediator and saviour of all who believe and a hypostasis or whatever of God was very much a separate religion. The Gospel of John effectively makes this clear, I think.

3) That's not the sort of religion (with respect to its founder or in this case trigger Fard) that we find in the NoI. The comparison would be, I think, if Christianity virtually reduced Jesus to a historical footnote and gave all focus on conversion to Yahweh.)

4) Yes Fard was inhabited or such by Allah, but this sounds to me pretty much like a parallel to adoptionist christology. Yes, Jesus could say "I Am" in that case. But Fard did not follow in the wake of Jesus as the focus of worship after that moment.

5) I don't think this is a case of something I have always opposed elsewhere -- trying to discount parallels by focusing on differences. In this case I think the difference (just one) is fundamental to the point of the analogy.

6) I am not denying parallels in the narratives, by the way. I think they are real. But I have tended to think that the modern or recent historical case-studies actually support the notion that the rationalised narrative of Jesus really does not do the job of explaining Christianity.

neilgodfrey wrote:7) With Fard we have clearly biographical or historical details of the person placed on public notice.

8) They may be false or mythologized but they are evidently attempts to present a historical reality or what we should believe to be historical reality.

9)Contrast Jesus: despite the historical setting everything about Jesus in the earliest evidence is theological and literary. But I know that point opens a can of worms for many who don't accept it.

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi All,

The information comes from a book called Origins of the Nation of Islam by Sargeant Sam Smith. The excerpt with the details about the ritual murder and subsequent arrest can be found here - http://awcf.org/files/SamSmith/Fard_partVdoc.pdf

Warmly,

Jay Raskin