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Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:29 am
by Jax
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm
Jax wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:08 am Here is the link to the page that I was resourcing https://owlcation.com/humanities/What-D ... -of-Thomas
Hi Lane, That's a link to the Gospel of Thomas, not Acts of Thomas.

I did a bit of a search but couldn't find a Greek version of Acts. Thom. but did find a statement that the extant Greek version dates to the 11 century. There are Syriac and Ethiopian versions, but they are thought to date later than the Greek, though not in their extant versions.
Opps! You are correct, my bad. Glad you caught that.

Lane

Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:01 am
by rgprice
I would also add that the Christ Hymn from Philippians says that the name of Jesus was bestowed only after the crucifixion.

12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.


Philippians 2:
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So, cannot Rev 19:12 be in agreement with Phil 2:9? The name was known to Christ the prior to the Crucifixion, but not given, or announced, until after the Crucifixion.

Secondly, Rev 19:13 says he was the Word of God. I think that while the Philippians Christ Hymn does not explicitly call Jesus the Word of God, it does indicate that Jesus was the Word of God. In fact, I think it derives from the idea that the Suffering Servant was the Word of God, or at the very least that the Christ was the Word of God.

“the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made” (The Special Laws I)
“the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being” (Questions and answers on Genesis II)
“for he is called the authority and the name of God and the Word, and man according to God's image” (On the Confusion of Tongues)
“[the] Word is continually a suppliant [(figure making a humble plea to someone in power or authority)] to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race” (Who is the Heir of Divine Things)
“Father of the world… [provides as an intermediary] his Son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins” (On the Life of Moses II)


Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:00 am
by Jax
rgprice wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:01 am I would also add that the Christ Hymn from Philippians says that the name of Jesus was bestowed only after the crucifixion.

12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.


Philippians 2:
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So, cannot Rev 19:12 be in agreement with Phil 2:9? The name was known to Christ the prior to the Crucifixion, but not given, or announced, until after the Crucifixion.

Secondly, Rev 19:13 says he was the Word of God. I think that while the Philippians Christ Hymn does not explicitly call Jesus the Word of God, it does indicate that Jesus was the Word of God. In fact, I think it derives from the idea that the Suffering Servant was the Word of God, or at the very least that the Christ was the Word of God.

“the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made” (The Special Laws I)
“the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being” (Questions and answers on Genesis II)
“for he is called the authority and the name of God and the Word, and man according to God's image” (On the Confusion of Tongues)
“[the] Word is continually a suppliant [(figure making a humble plea to someone in power or authority)] to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race” (Who is the Heir of Divine Things)
“Father of the world… [provides as an intermediary] his Son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins” (On the Life of Moses II)

This then would indicate, would it not, that IC was known by something else before the crucifixion?

Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:21 am
by rgprice
@Jax

Well, under these assumptions, I think it would simply imply that he was known as the Word prior to the Crucifixion. But, I'm not sure that's really right. However, what I'm saying is that it seems to me that both Rev 19:12 and the Christ Hymn *could* be in agreement with one another that the the Word was Christ and his name was unknown until the Crucifixion when it was announced as Jesus.

Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:55 am
by Jax
rgprice wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:21 am @Jax

Well, under these assumptions, I think it would simply imply that he was known as the Word prior to the Crucifixion. But, I'm not sure that's really right. However, what I'm saying is that it seems to me that both Rev 19:12 and the Christ Hymn *could* be in agreement with one another that the the Word was Christ and his name was unknown until the Crucifixion when it was announced as Jesus.
Doesn't that kind of torpedo the Gospels though as they have an IC before the crucifixion?

Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:26 pm
by MrMacSon
The wider context of Rev 19:12 is pretty spectacular (as is what follows to the end of the Book of Revelation)

Rev 19:11-18


11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter” [Ps 2:9]. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
King of Kings and Lord of Lords

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”



The narrative continues through the next chapter where there is reference to the "first resurrection' of "the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and *because of the word of God* " -

Rev 20:4-6

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

( even Satan gets a second chance in Rev: 20:7-9a : though for a second dispatching )


In Rev 20:12-15 the Book of Life features a couple of times (it's a feature of the Valentinian Gospel of Truth, at least)

Rev 20:12-15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Rev 21 starts

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth” [Isaiah 65:17], for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

and ends

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


In Revelation 23 John appears explicitly in the first person, as does Jesus


12 “Look, I [Jesus] am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you [plural in the Greek] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”



Then John provides a final warning to anyone who adds or subtracts from a prophetic scroll

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

nb. "the tree of life"

Re: Revelation 19:12

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:54 pm
by MrMacSon
Jax wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:47 am Codex Sinaiticus https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscri ... omSlider=0 has....
λεμι οι δε οι οφθαλ μοι αυτου φλοξ πυ ροϲ και επι την κε φαλην αυτου δια δηματα πολλα ε χων ονομα οιδε
"His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on his head were many diadems: and he had a name written which no one knew, but he himself."

How do you interpret this?

Lane
The bible hub interlinear of Rev 19:12 infers the name might have been written on the diadēmata, the crowns; though that doesn't seem to change the main point: ie.that it was a name which no one knew https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-12.htm

and it finishes "if not He himself" ... ie. "which no one know, if not He himself"

which might imply He himself might not have known his name (??)