Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Larry Jimenez, self-described former Christian fundamentalist, has a blog piece on the authorship of various parts of the Bible. Since six of his ten points concern the NT, I put this thread here.

Jimenez writes ten summaries of scholarly views on authorship of different Biblical books. His info will not be new to most people on this board. I think some, though, may disagree with his presentation of "Q" as though its existence is fairly well established. About Q he says that Matthew and Luke could not have copied from each other, since each has material absent from the other. [I think I've seen members of this board maintain that Luke simply copied and altered Matthew, but I can't remember who held this.] It was a sayings gospel w/ no passion narrative, so its author must have seen Jesus as a teacher of wisdom whose death held "no salvific signficance."

Jimenez also talks about the theory that Paul and Simon Magus were the same person. He deems this theory "more speculative."

Any views? Here's the link:

http://listverse.com/2014/09/08/10-theo ... the-bible/

"The recovery of Q led researchers to a strange conclusion. Since Q does not contain any Passion story, whoever first wrote the document must have regarded Jesus as a teacher of wisdom and nothing more. Jesus’s death held no salvific significance for that writer."

The "recovery" of Q was actually the invention of Q. Similar to the "recovery" of J, E, D, and P.

"The traditional view that Jesus’s disciple John wrote the Book of Revelation was questioned as early as the third century. Christian writer Dionysus of Alexandria, using the critical methods still employed by modern scholars, spotted the difference between the elegant Greek of John’s gospel and the crudely ungrammatical prose of Revelation. The works could not have been written by the same person.Dionysus noted that the John of Revelation identifies himself in the work, while the John of the gospel does not. He argued that the two men simply shared the same name."

The anonymous authors of both texts possibly had different Johns in mind; the gospel writer, John the Baptist, and the Revelation writer, John the Apostle, though he could have meant John the Baptist as well.

Blood wrote:"The recovery of Q led researchers to a strange conclusion. Since Q does not contain any Passion story, whoever first wrote the document must have regarded Jesus as a teacher of wisdom and nothing more. Jesus’s death held no salvific significance for that writer."
....

That's sort of "Heads I win, tails you lose" for you, isn't it? Rather strong for a "must"!
The usual (and now known to be incorrect) view is that Q did not contain narrative, so it would obviously not have included a Passion story.
The writer of Q may have known that a Passion Narrative had been written, so he just wrote up his notes on Q up to that point.
You seem to be speaking of a hypothetical Q1 that excludes the more apocalyptic Q2, or who spoke of the miracles he had performed.

Can you expand on what you post here, Adam? What is the correct view about the narrative elements in Q, and how do we know it's correct? If it contained narrative at all, why no passion narrative - or did it have passion narrative? You speak of "the more apocalyptic Q2" as though we know about it ... what do we know about an apocalyptic Q, and on what basis do conclusions about it count as knowledge?

If all this stuff is well known and digested among scholars, I'd be grateful for some pointers to studies that establish the findings that you speak of.

BTW the quotation from Blood in your post is not Blood's writing but is Blood's quotation from the article I linked in the OP.

Many thanks, f

f,

ficino wrote:Can you expand on what you post here, Adam? What is the correct view about the narrative elements in Q, and how do we know it's correct? If it contained narrative at all, why no passion narrative - or did it have passion narrative? You speak of "the more apocalyptic Q2" as though we know about it ... what do we know about an apocalyptic Q, and on what basis do conclusions about it count as knowledge?

If all this stuff is well known and digested among scholars, I'd be grateful for some pointers to studies that establish the findings that you speak of.

I believe that what Adam is alluding to are attempts to "stratify" Q. Not "praise it to the sky" kind of "stratify", but rather to detect stages in its development. As I am sure you already know, the leading researcher of the Q source hypothesis, John Kloppenborg Verbin (I am not sure he still uses the surname Verbin, his wife's family name), found Q's closest analog to be ancient near eastern wisdom literature. These tended to be pithy sayings usually with no or minimal narrative. The Formation of Q is the major work of this type.

In that work, he made a stab at establishing the redactional steps in the development of the proposed Q used by the authors of the gospels of Mattherw & Luke, but did not draw up a formal list of these strata. Burton Mack tried to precisely identify these strata and to propose historical conditions under which may have formed.

I think it was Mack, in The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins, who formally proposed that the Q strata which contained apocalyptic overtones were later additions to the original strata of peace-nik like aphorisms of Jesus the antinomian, in order to accommodate Jesus' Jewish followers.

Kloppenborg later agreed with this interpretation in Excavating Q. A paper by by Dennis Ingolfsland, entitled Kloppenborg’s Stratification of Q and its Significance for Historical Jesus Studies (JETS 46/2, June 2003, pp 217–32), can be found here:
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... 2_JETS.pdf

J D Crossan, of course, also added his "2 cents", and his analysis can hopefully still be found here:
http://www.jesusdatabase.org/index.php? ... _Inventory

Everyone seems to have their own "pet" idea of what Jesus must have been like, and there is a whole school of critics who think a historical Jesus was an antinomian wandering charismatic spouting wisdom sayings, and that his primary audience, Jewish peasants, Judaized Jesus' oral sayings when the pen converted the oral sayings to written form. See anything at all regarding the Didache.

[td]12:39-40[/td][td]12:40[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qi?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]12:42b-46[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qi?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:42-46[/td][td][12:47-48][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td].[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]--[/td] [td].[/td] [td].[/td][td](12:49)[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:49-53[/td][td][12:50][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td].[/td] [td].[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]12:51-53[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]12:54-56[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:54-56[/td][td]12:57-59[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:57-59[/td][td]13:18-19[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]13:18-21[/td][td]13:20-21[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td].[/td][td]13:23[/td] [td]--[/td] [td].[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td].[/td] [td].[/td][td]13:24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]13:24-27[/td][td]13:(25), 26-27[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]13:28-29[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]13:28-30[/td][td]13:30[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]13:34-35a[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]13:34-35[/td][td]13:35b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q2r[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2r[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td].[/td][td][14:5][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]?[/td] [td].[/td] [td].[/td][td]14:11/18:14[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:11/18:14[/td][td]14:16-24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:16-24[/td][td]14:26[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:26-27;17:33[/td][td]14:27[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td].[/td][td]17:33[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td].[/td][td]14:34-35[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:34-35[/td][td]15:4-7[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]15:04-10[/td][td](15:8-10)[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td].[/td][td]16:13[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qa[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]16:13[/td][td]16:16[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2?[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]16:16-18[/td][td]16:17[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td].[/td][td]16:18[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td].[/td][td]17:1b[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:01-02[/td][td]17:02[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td].[/td][td]17:3b-4[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:03-04[/td][td]17:6b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:06[/td][td]17:23-24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]17:23-37[/td][td]17:37b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]17:26-27, 30[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td](17:28-29)[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]17:34-35[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td].[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td].[/td][td]19:12-13,15b-26[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]19:11-27[/td][td]22:28-30[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1*[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]22:28-30[/td][td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td]

Kloppenborg's Q	Schultz	Polag	Jacobson	Schmithals	Schenk	Kloppenborg	Sato	Zeller	Mack	Mack's Q
.	1972	1977	1978/1992	1979,80,85	1981	1987/1990	1988	1977,82,84	1994	.
.	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	(9)	.
(3:2-4)	--	SpR?		Q2	--	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	03:01-06
3:7-9	Q2	SpR	Qcr	Q1	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	03:07-09
3:16bd	Q2	SpR	Qc	Q2	Qr	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	03:16-17
3:16c	Q2	SpR	Qi	Q2	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
3:17	Q2	SpR	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
[3:21-32]	--	SpR	Qc	Q2	--	--	A	Q?		.
4:1-13	Q2	SpR	Q3	Q2	Qr	Q3	SpE	Q3	Q3	04:01-13
[4:16]	--	?	--	--	--	?	A	--	.	.
<6:20a>	--	H	?	?	Q	Q1	A	Q	Q1	06:20a
6:20b-21	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	06:20-23
6:22-23b	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Qr	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	.
6:23c	Q2	H	Qcr	Q1	Qr	Q2r	A	Q1	Q1	.
(6:24-26)	--	?	--	Q1?	--	Q2	QLk	QLk	.	.
6:27-28,32-33, 35c	Q1	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	06:27-35
(6:34-35b)	--	--	Qc?	--	--	Q1	A?	--	Q1	.
6:29-30	Q1	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	.
(Q/Matt 5:41)	--	H	--	--	--	Q1	A	--	.	.
6:31	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	.
6:36	Q1	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	06:36-38
6:37b, 38c	Q1	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	.
(6:37c-38b)	--	Ha	Qc?	--	--	Q1	QLk	--	Q1	.
6:39b	Q2	H	Qcr	Q?	Q	Q1	SpE	?	Q1	06:39-40
6:40	Q2	H	Qc	Q?	Q	Q1	SpE	?	Q1	.
6:41-42	Q1	H	Qc	Q?	Q	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	06:41-42
6:43-45	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	06:43-45
6:46	Q2	H	Qc	Q2?	Qr	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	06:46-49
6:47-49	Q2	H	Qc	Q1?	Q*	Q1	A	Q1	Q1	.
7:1a	Q2	SpR	Qcr	Q2	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	07:01-10
7:1b-2, 6-10	Q2	SpR	Qcr	Q2	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
7:18-19, (20)	Q2	Ha	Qi	Q2	Qr	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	07:18-23
7:22	Q2	Ha	Qi	Q2	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
7:23	Q2	Ha	Qi	Q2	Qr	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
7:24-26a	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q2	Q*	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	07:24-28
7:26b	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q2	Qr	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
7:27	Q2	SpR	Qc	Q2	Qr	Q2	SpE	Q	Q2a	.
7:28a	Q2	SpR	Qi	Q1	Q	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
7:28b	Q2	SpR	Qi	Q1	Qr	Q2	A	Q	Q2a	.
[7:29-30]	--	--	--	Q2	Qr	--	QLk	?	.	.
7:31-32	Q2	H	Qcr	Q1	Q*	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	07:31-35
7:33-35	Q2	H	Qcr	Q1*	Qr	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
9:57-58	Q2	H	Qc	Q2	Q*	Q1	B	Q	Q1	09:57-62
9:59-60	Q2	H	Qc	Q2	Q	Q1	B	Q	Q1	.
(9:61-62)	--	H	--	--	--	Q1	QLk	--	Q1	.
10:02	Q2	H	Qi	Q1	Q	Q1	B1	Q1	Q1	10:01-11
10:03	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	B	Q1	Q1	.
[Q/Matt 10:05-06]	--	--	--	--	--	--	(B)	--	.	.
[Q/Matt 10:23]	--	H	--	Q1	--	--	(B)	--	.	.
10:4-11	Q2	Ha	Qc*	Q1	Q	Q1	B	Q1	Q1	.
10:12	Q2	H	Qcr	Q2r	Q2r	Q2r	C	Q1	Q2a	10:12
10:13-15	Q2	H	Qc*	Q2	Q2r	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	10:13-15
10:16	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q1	Q1	Br	Q1	Q2b	10:16
10:21	Q2	SpR	Qi	Q1	Q2r	Q2	B	Q	Q3	10:21-22
10:22	Q2	SpR	Qi	Q2	Q2r	Q2	SpE	Q3?	Q3	.
10:23b-24	Q2	SpR	?	Q2	Q2r	Q2	B	Q	Q2b	10:23-24
[10:25-28]	--	--	--	--	--	--	SpE	Q?	.	.
[11:1b]	--	H	--	--	--	--	--	Q	Q1	11:01-04
11:2-4	Q1	H	Qi	Q1	Q	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	.
11:9-10	Q1	H	Qi	Q?	Q	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	11:09-13
11:11-13	Q1	H	Qi	Q?	Q*	Q	SpE	Q1	Q1	.
11:14-18a	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	11:14-23
11:19	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q*	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:20	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
(11:21-22)	--	Ha	--	Q?	--	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:23	Q2	Ha	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	C	Q	Q2b	11:23
11:24-26	Q2	H	Qc	Q?	Q	Q2	C	QS	Q2b	11:24-26
(11:27-28)	--	--	Qc	--	--	Q2	--	--	Q3	11:27-28
11:16, 29	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q*	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	11:16,29-32
11:30	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Qr	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:31-32	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q*	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:33	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	SpE	Q	Q2b	11:33-35
11:34-35 (36)	Q2	H	Qc	Q?	Q1	Q2	SpE	Q	Q2b	.
11:39b-44, 46-48	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	11:39-52
11:42d	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Qr	Q3	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:49-51a	Q2	Hr	Qc	Q1	Q*	Q2	C*	Q	Q2a	.
11:51b	Q2	Hr	Qcr?	Q1	Qr	Q2r	C	Q	Q2a	.
11:52	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q2	C	Q	Q2a	.
12:2-3	Q2	H	Qi?	Q1	Q	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	12:02-03
12:4-7	Q1	H	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	12:04-07
12:8-9	Q1	H	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q2	SpE	Q1	Q2b	12:08-12
12:10	Q2	SpR	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q2	SpE	Q1	Q2b	.
12:11-12	Q2	H	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q1	SpE	Q	Q2b	.
(12:13-14)	--	--	--	--	--	Q1	--	--	Q1	12:13-21
(12:16-21)	--	--	--	--	--	Q1	QLk	--	Q1	.
12:22b-24, 26-28	Q1	H	Qi?	Q1	Q*	Q1	SpE?	Q1	Q1	12:22-31
12:25	Q1	H	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q1	SpE?	Q1	Q1	.
12:29-31	Q1	H	Qi?	Q1	Qr	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	.
12:33-34	Q1	H	Qc	Q1	Q	Q1	SpE	Q1	Q1	12:33-34
[12:35-38]	--	H	Qc	Q1	--	--	QLk	Q1?	.	.
12:39	Q2	H	Qc	Q1	Q*	Q2	SpE	Q1	Q2a

Sigla.
-- not in Q
? in Q but attribution uncertain
sub collections

1. Schulz (1972)
Q1 The kerygma of the oldest Palestinian-Syrian Q community
Q2 The kerygma of the younger Syrian Q- community

2. 'Polag (1977)
H Main Collection (Hauptsammlung)
Ha Older clusters (Die älteren Spruchgruppen) predating the Main Collection
Hr Redactional insertions into the Hauptsammlung
SpR Late editing (Spätredaktion)

3. Jacobson (1978, 1992)
Qc compositional stage
Qc* saying with redactional touches
Qcr redaction at the compositional stage
Qi intermediate redaction
Q3 final redaction

4. Schmithals (1979, 1980, 1985)
Q1 nonkerygmatic, pre-Christian stratum
Q1* pre-Christian stratum with slight Q2 influence
Q2 Christological (post-Markan) redaction of Q.
Q2r creation of the redactor of Q.

5. Schenk (1981)
Q included in Q
Qr from the final redactional stratum
Q* traditional but with slight redactional touches

6. Kloppenborg (1987, 1990)
Q1 formative (instructional) stratum
Q2 secondary, polemical stratum
Q2r creation of the secondary redaction
Q3 tertiary glosses

7. Sato (1988)
A Redaction A [(A) = uncertain]
B Redaction B [(B) = uncertain]
C Redaction C [(C) = uncertain]
χr Redaction at the level of "A", "B" or "C"
SpE Spätere Einschübungen (later interpolations — major redaction)
QLk Proto-Lukan recension of Q

8. Zeller (1977, 1982, 1984)
Q1 Early Sayings-Complexes
Q Other Q sayings & complexes
Q3 Late Hellenistic-Jewish redaction of Q
(this list was copied from somewhere, but I cannot remember where)

DCH

Thanks for this nice overview, David. Great!.

So 9 out of 10 of these are pretty common knowledge. The idea that Paul and Simon Magus were the same person is highly speculative and not really worth considering beyond mere speculation IMO. This point spoils what is otherwise a pretty good article.

Blood wrote:"The recovery of Q led researchers to a strange conclusion. Since Q does not contain any Passion story, whoever first wrote the document must have regarded Jesus as a teacher of wisdom and nothing more. Jesus’s death held no salvific significance for that writer."

The "recovery" of Q was actually the invention of Q. Similar to the "recovery" of J, E, D, and P.

I think there's good reason to think that there was some sort of Q-like sayings traditions that found their way into Matthew and Luke (and possibly Thomas, though I'm less confident about that). But I do agree that attempts to reconstruct them as coherent narratives from which we can determine its layers or hypothetical author's thoughts can never reach the mark of "probable". I also grumble when I read stuff like "Jesus’s death held no salvific significance for that writer". Can we really say that? I feel the same for the various JEDP theories. There are good reasons for thinking that these texts were added to, edited, changed etc. over time, but to try an isolate the exact seams is very hard and often requires some questionable assumptions just to get the ball rolling.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Thanks for this nice overview, David. Great!.

Yes, many thanks, David! It must have taken you some time to put this together. Much appreciated, as well as the links.

I note that Ingolfsland's article, which you linked, says that there is increasing doubt about the existence of Q. Cf. what Blood said above.

"Q" is merely New Testament critics trying to come up with their own "Documentary Hypothesis," since they are not allowed to posit that gospel writers could invent material about the Savior.