Page 8 of 14
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:30 pm
by Secret Alias
Another point that struck me while I was buying kidney beans.
Philo and Justin know a tradition that pronounced Israel "Ishrael." In other words Hebrew that didn't differentiate sin from shin. This is where they get the "man (ish) seeing God" or related traditions. It also accounts for yashar being acknowledged in various sources as a homelitic etymology too i.e. the Israelites = "the upright" (ones)
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:38 pm
by Secret Alias
Not that I am home let me show you what I mean.
Justin: Moreover, in the book of Exodus we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was IC, and was declared mysteriously through Moses. Thus it is written: 'And the Lord spoke to Moses, Say to this people, Behold, I send My angel before your face, to keep you in the way, to bring you into the land which I have prepared for you. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.' Exodus 23:20-21
That's not Joshua. Yes a reference to Joshua is now found in the text. But Justin is connecting the name of the angel with IC not Joshua.
I've always argued that the present text of Trypho is corrupt. But here it is explicit and goes back to Marcovitch's corrections of the text as it is. A line is added to make it appear that Justin has two explanations "man" and "Jesus." But Jesus doesn't fit Exodus 23:21. The angel isn't named Joshua and there is no reason to think anyone ever thought that. The bit about the name of Israel that follows makes clear what Justin had in mind. Ish.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:48 pm
by Secret Alias
Here is what immediately follows in Trypho:
Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name IC
The ANGEL from Exodus 23:21. Not the human Joshua. But someone adds now a line that doesn't fit the original argument:
and first called Auses Numbers 13:16. (Oshea).
An angel was never called Hosea and had his name changed. This is put there to make IC fit Jesus. Then the original text continues:
For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was IC. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also.
Jacob's name was changed from wrestling with Ish. Ishrael was read "a man seeing/contending with God" because the angel Jacob wrestled with/saw was named Ish.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm
by schillingklaus
Jesus is each and every theophany of the old testament. Therefore, John can write things like "Before there was Abraham, I am", and "You try to kill me, but your father Abraham did not". Jesus visited Abraham in a forest of Memer somewhere in Genesis.
Likewise, according to John, Jesus is seen, according to John, by the prophet Isaiah in his glory. This refures to the inaugural vision of said prophet.
According to the epistle of Jude, Jesus performed the punishment of various audacious unbelievers in the Old Testament.
It was thus possible to reconcile the theophanies with the transcendental theology of the church fathers.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:46 pm
by Secret Alias
Sounds like he is connecting them to me.
So Justin is saying Exodus is predicting the coming of Joshua ben Nun. It isn't talking about an angel but a human messenger. Israel was led by a physical man not a supernatural being.
Behold, I send My angel before your face, to keep you in the way, to bring you into the land which I have prepared for you. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.'
So Justin is saying that Exodus is identifying Joshua ben Nun as the angel also referenced in the first verses of Mark. So if we move forward to the next line:
For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was IC. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also.
So Joshua ben Nun was the one who announced the very words of Exodus 23:21 to Moses? Joshua ben Nun was once "called Israel" and Joshua ben Nun wrestled with Jacob? How is that possible when Joshua ben Nun wasn't alive at the time of Jacob.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:12 pm
by Secret Alias
Alan Segal explains what the Samaritans believed:
For the Samaritans the Glory mediates between God and Moses as Ex. 23:21 allows. In Memar Marqah ... the Glory claims that it contains the "Great Name" and also applies to himself the basic scriptural passages describing the angel of the Lord. He is said to mediate between God and Moses as Exod. 23:21 allows.
Philo by now not surprisingly holds the same understanding:
for until a man is made perfect he uses divine reason as the guide of his path, for that is the sacred oracle of scripture: "Behold, I send my angel before thy face that he may keep thee in the road, so as to lead thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. Attend thou to him, and listen to him; do not disobey him; for he will not pardon your transgressions, for my name is in Him."{88}{#ex 23:20.} (175) But when he has arrived at the height of perfect knowledge, then, running forward vigorously, he keeps up with the speed of him who was previously leading him in his way; for in this way they will both become attendants of God who is the guide of all things
(Ex. xxiii. 20-21) ^ What is the meaning of the words, " Behold, I am sending My angel * before thy face, that he may guard thee on the way, in order that he may lead and bring thee to the land which I have prepared for thee. Give heed and listen and do not disobey. For he will not show consideration for thee," for My name is upon him " ^ ? An angel is an intellectual soul " or rather wholly mind,' wholly incorporeal, made (to be) a minister of God,* and appointed over certain needs and the service of the race of mortals, since it was unable, because of its corruptible nature, to receive the gifts and benefactions extended by God. For it was not capable of bearing the multitude of (His) good (gifts). (Therefore) of necessity was the Logos appointed as judge and mediator,^ who is called " angel." Him He sets " before the face," there where the place of the eyes and the senses is, in order that by seeing and receiving sense(-impressions) it " may follow the leadership of virtue,'' not unwillingly but willingly. But the entry into the previously prepared land is allegorized * in the several (details) of the above-mentioned (statements) in respect of the guarding ' of the way, (namely) " giving heed," " listening," " not disobeying," " not showing con- sideration, " " setting His name upon him. ' ' This, however, must first be examined. Those who incautiously travel a road go astray from the right and genuinely broad road, and many times turn aside into trackless, impassable and rough places." And similar to this is it when souls experience something juvenile and pious, ** for when one is without a share of discipline one is borne along like unimpeded streams where it is unprofitable." And the second thing was the entry into the land, (that is) an entry into philosophy,'* (which is), as it were, a good land and fertile in the production of fruits, which the divine plants, the virtues,* bear. Therefore it is proper that he who wishes to enjoy these fruits should receive training in exercising caution ; but caution is the supervision of the counselling mind ^ and readiness to listen. For just as a lover puts aside all other things and hastens to his desire, so also does one who hungers and thirsts for the knowledge of the disciplines and for learning what he does not know put away his concern for other things and hasten to listen, and by night and by day he watches the doors of the houses of the wise." Thus, to give heed is (referred to) in these (words). But (next) in order is to listen, and it is naturally mentioned in connexion therewith.* For he who listens with the tips of his ears is able to get (only) a somewhat vague perception of what is said, while to him who listens carefully the words enter more clearly and the things heard travel on all the paths, so that they form his mind * with deep impressions,'^ as if (it were) wax, lest it easily become stupid and (the impressions) leap away.** After this comes (the statement) that it is not right to disobey. For some men receive within them the appearances of words and, after receiving them, [do not] become disobedient * but display a quarrelsome and rebellious nature. Such men He shames,^ wishing to admonish them by preparing lawful and constant declarations of good things." But whenever the word of God is announced, it is altogether good, beautiful and precious. For to him who does not obey He says, " he has no respect for thee," and (this is said) most naturally. For when conviction * is established in the soul and perceives it inclining to wickedness, it reproaches (the soul) and becomes its accuser, and by scolding and threatening, puts it to shame. For he within whom it is, is apprehended by his own judgment as being altogether foolish. And in contrast to all the counsellors" who are in the various cities " it is obliged not to show respect or to admonish with fear but with both wisdom and freedom of speech." And a very clear proof of tlys is that the divine name is called upon the angel. And this is the most sovereign and principal (being) which the heaven and earth and the whole world knows.** And he who has so great a power « must necessarily be filled with all-powerful ^ wisdom."
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:27 pm
by Secret Alias
Where does he say that the angel is named Joshua? There is a reference to the Patriarch Joshua having his name changed from Hosea to Joshua. Nothing about an angel named Joshua. So you are arguing that Justin said that the angel was formerly named Hosea? That Jacob also wrestled with an angel named Joshua formerly named Hosea?
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:40 pm
by Secret Alias
"Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name IC"
Why is that a reference to Joshua? This is a continuation of the citation of the angel in Exodus 23:21.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:43 pm
by Secret Alias
Exodus is cited as saying:
Behold, I send My angel before your face, to keep you in the way, to bring you into the land
The way everyone understands Exodus 23:21 is that Israel will be led by an angel - the column of fire - into Israel.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:45 pm
by Secret Alias
The entire passage makes it clear:
I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.
I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.
“I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”
There are two powers. God and this angel. The angel will lead Israel into the promised land. There is no reference to Joshua in any of this. Justin was originally commenting on the name of the angel and saying that it was the same angel who wrestled with Jacob and gave him the name Israel (= 'a man who contends/sees God'). It's a confirmation that the angel is named Man and eventually Moses will be called Ish haElohim and have a shining face because of his closeness with Man.