Page 9 of 14
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:49 pm
by Secret Alias
Of course it is. Exodus 23 is about an angel who leads the Israelites into the promised land. There's no argument about that. It's plain in black and white:
Behold I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.
27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.
31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea[a] to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:53 pm
by Secret Alias
The Book of Jubilees knows this interpretation of Exodus:
The angel of the presence—who was going in front of the Israelite camp.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:55 pm
by Secret Alias
Don't forget also that the canonical gospels set forth the understanding that Exodus 23:21 applies to John not Jesus as Tertullian duly notes:
And accordingly it is agreed that the Son of God Himself spake to Moses, and said to the people, "Behold, I send mine angel before thy"--that is, the people's--"face, to guard thee on the march, and to introduce thee into the land which I have prepared thee: attend to him, and be not disobedient to him; for he hath not escaped171 thy notice, since my name is upon him."172 For Joshua was to introduce the people into the land of promise, not Moses. Now He called him an "angel," on account of the magnitude of the mighty deeds which he was to achieve (which mighty deeds Joshua the son of Nun did, and you yourselves read), and on account of his office of prophet announcing (to wit) the divine will; just as withal the Spirit, speaking in the person of the Father, calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future "angel," through the prophet: "Behold, I send mine angel before Thy"--that is, Christ's--"face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee."173 Nor is it a novel practice to the Holy Spirit to call those "angels" whom God has appointed as ministers of His power.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:57 pm
by Secret Alias
"Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name IC and first called Auses Numbers 13:16"
Btw, it makes even more sense the name is Joshua in context... because he is trying to one up Trypho in the text.
It makes no sense that it was Joshua in this context as neither Samaritans like Justin nor Jews like Trypho thought that Exodus 23:21 had anything to do with Joshua ben Nun nor for that matter an otherwise unattested angel named 'Jesus.' On the other hand if a Samaritan and a Jew were having a discussion about the Torah, they'd agree that the angel named Man wrestled with Jacob (referenced in the text) no less than the angel who led the Israelites was named Man or Fire because the Israelites were led by a fiery column.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:00 pm
by Secret Alias
Again... literalism.
And what were Samaritans like Justin and Jews like Trypho were famous for. Now they are all white?
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:01 pm
by Secret Alias
What you are saying is that what matters is the reference to Joshua but not the reference to Ish in the passage. Even though Marcovich says that Justin identified the name with both Man and Savior. Why the acceptance of one and not the other?
Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses Numbers 13:16. (Oshea). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was Jesus. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also.
So the Joshua reference is the one that matters but not the Ish reference. Thanks! I will go back to watching American Hustle.
Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses Numbers 13:16. (JOSHUA REFERENCE). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was Jesus. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also (ISH REFERENCE).
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:05 pm
by Secret Alias
1. either Justin's Trypho text was altered and either the Joshua or the Ish reference was added AND the reference Marcovich points to that the name is BOTH Ish and Savior.
OR
2. Joshua can hold at the same time that IC means both Joshua AND Ish with no apparent conflict in his mind.
Those are the only possibilities. I choose (1) and say that the Joshua reference was added, in part because the gospel identifies John the Baptist as the angel and Justin couldn't contradict the gospel if he knew this reference. Good night! Enough time wasted.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:06 pm
by MrMacSon
Chris Hansen wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:21 pm
He [Justin] is saying the angel had the name Joshua, he is saying the prophet and the angel bore the same name, which helps him then locate Jesus of Christianity in the angel, because now he can impart Jesus of Christianity on the Old Testament... like Christians have done for two thousand years.
I mostly agree with this, but would point out the names would have been/are the same in Greek ie. -
He [Justin] is saying the angel had the name Iesous, he is saying the prophet and the angel bore the same name, which helps him then locate Iesous/Jesus of Christianity in the angel, because now he can impart Iesous of Christianity on the Old Testament... like Christians have done for two thousand years.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:08 pm
by Secret Alias
Responding to MrMcSon:
No he's not. The text as it is now is confirming Marcovich's reconstruction. Again:
Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name Jesus, and first called Auses Numbers 13:16. (JOSHUA REFERENCE). For if you shall understand this, you shall likewise perceive that the name of Him who said to Moses, 'for My name is in Him,' was IC. For, indeed, He was also called Israel, and Jacob's name was changed to this also (ISH REFERENCE).
The text as it stands now is saying it means BOTH Joshua AND Ish as Marcovich reconstructs. Joshua was formerly called Hosea. Jacob wrestled with Ish and Justin identifies Israel as coming from anthropos.
Re: A Breakthrough in My Ishu Theory
Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:15 pm
by Secret Alias
Later in the Dialogue:
Accordingly the name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power; for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power. And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures.
He didn't think that Joshua was wrestling with Jacob. He knows that the name of the angel and the root of the name Israel came from Ish.