A short summary on John the Baptist...

[mlinssen]

Being likened to Elijah in pre-synoptic gospel drafts, especially the one cauleld Pauline gospel by Philippe Rolland, this was unacceptable for Marcionism,

which is the reason why, if John is a mere figure of paper, then his introduction in a Gospel couldn't be made the first time by an anti-demiurgist as Marcion. The non-existence of John the Baptist is in contradiction with the priority of the Marcion's Evangelion.

Again and again, I am moved to suspect that the euhemerization of the deity Jesus was started by Judaizers.

You can't spin a story by leaving out signifucant characters, Giuseppe

46. IS said: starting from Adam toward Johannes the Immerser, in the births of the women there is not he who exalted to Johannes the Immerser So that his eyes will not break. I said it However: he who will come to be in you he been made little person he will know the reign of king and he will be high to Johannes.

Tell me: are the two characters named significant? The mere fact that Adam gets juxtaposed to John is enough already

Thomas invented IS too Giuseppe, why are you being so obstinate LOL.
If you were going to plagiarise Harry Potter, would you leave out his parents? They don't do anything, but they're vital to the story

Does that make them real?

[Giuseppe]

Yet it is in *Ev 11,1-2 again that he denigrates John B's disciples

You can't deny that Marcion didn't like the only presence of John. I agree that he used the legend of John as an expedient to make the point that the last prophet of YHWH was inferior compared to Jesus, but if there was no legend of John at all, it seems that for Marcion it would be even more OK.
The pharisees were sufficient to make the point that Judaism had bad representatives. But you can't deny the historical existence of pharisees only because they are portrayed negatively. Usually, in a Gospel, people who are attacked/denigrated existed: scribes, pharisees, Herod, herodians. Why John would be an exception?

Obviously, my claim is that John existed if and only if Marcion's Gospel comes first (Vinzent's theory).

[mlinssen]

Yet it is in *Ev 11,1-2 again that he denigrates John B's disciples

You can't deny that Marcion didn't like the only presence of John. I agree that he used the legend of John as an expedient to make the point that the last prophet of YHWH was inferior compared to Jesus, but if there was no legend of John at all, it seems that for Marcion it would be even more OK.
The pharisees were sufficient to make the point that Judaism had bad representatives. But you can't deny the historical existence of pharisees only because they are portrayed negatively. Usually, in a Gospel, people who are attacked/denigrated existed: scribes, pharisees, Herod, herodians. Why John would be an exception?

Obviously, my claim is that John existed if and only if Marcion's Gospel comes first (Vinzent's theory).

"if there was no legend of John at all"

Again, Giuseppe: can you take Thomas and leave out John the Baptist, even though he has no role in it whatsoever?
Naturally a legend must have evolved from this one single logion where he gets the highest of praise - and John the Baptist came into existence that way

"you can't deny the historical existence of pharisees only because they are portrayed negatively"

John the Baptist is most certainly not portrayed negative in Thomas - on the contrary

people who are attacked/denigrated existed: scribes, pharisees, Herod, herodians. Why John would be an exception

It appears that you have developed a theory in this regard that typically demonstrates correlation yet no causation: people who shop at Walmart have the highest percentage of cancer-related deaths from smoking, how about that claim? Does Walmart cause cancer from smoking now?

(I'm just making this up by the way)

Stories are true, Giuseppe. Not only True, but even TRUE. Harry Potter is a true character, he "really exists". You can't write a story about Harry Potter without dealing with Harry Potter, that is just impossible.
Write a story about Thomas' story without mentioning John the Baptist? Impossible. Look at what Mark did: he gave John the flimsiest of all roles, 6 verses in total - but a role he assigned him nonetheless

[mlinssen]

Yet it is in *Ev 11,1-2 again that he denigrates John B's disciples

You can't deny that Marcion didn't like the only presence of John. I agree that he used the legend of John as an expedient to make the point that the last prophet of YHWH was inferior compared to Jesus, but if there was no legend of John at all, it seems that for Marcion it would be even more OK.
The pharisees were sufficient to make the point that Judaism had bad representatives. But you can't deny the historical existence of pharisees only because they are portrayed negatively. Usually, in a Gospel, people who are attacked/denigrated existed: scribes, pharisees, Herod, herodians. Why John would be an exception?

Obviously, my claim is that John existed if and only if Marcion's Gospel comes first (Vinzent's theory).

I can be even more concise: in your theory, even Jesus must have existed

I didn't know you were an anti-mythicist

[Giuseppe]

I know that Jesus didn't exist because in the epistles of Paul, 1 Peter, Hebrews, Revelation, believed to be written before the first gospel, there is no mention at all of an earthly Jesus, and good reasons to think that he was crucified in heaven.

I can't claim with equal certainty that John the Baptist didn't exist, if the first story talking about him sees him as an embarrassing and rival figure for the theology of the author of the story.

[mlinssen]

I know that Jesus didn't exist because in the epistles of Paul, 1 Peter, Hebrews, Revelation, believed to be written before the first gospel, there is no mention at all of an earthly Jesus, and good reasons to think that he was crucified in heaven.

I can't claim with equal certainty that John the Baptist didn't exist, if the first story talking about him sees him as an embarrassing and rival figure for the theology of the author of the story.

Giuseppe, Thomas is the first text and John gets high praise on paper, yet when you understand what is meant then you immediately understand that it is mere wordplay.
Marcion is the first story where john comes alive, yet in Marcion John B is nothing but a tool, a puppet, a projection of Judaism: a harmless doll to use and abuse

Explain how John the Baptist is an "embarrassing and rival figure for the theology" of Marcion please, just name one single verse (or more) where that is the case

[schillingklaus]

Marcion's is not the first story featuring John B, pre-synoptic gospels with euhemerization had preceded him. The priority of John is not an embarrassing problem for Judaizers, who need the messiah annointed by Eliyah according to Scripture; and it is equally not embarassing for those who understood that the proclamation of the conversion must precede the institution of the Eucharist for the acquisition of the nous must precede the application of the nous. It is only troublesome for Marcion that someone predicted the coming of Jesus and was able to preach appropriately the faith in him before Paul.

[mlinssen]

1. John B had to exist in Marcion, of course - in the exact same way as he had to exist in Mark ff: there's just no way of ignoring him, given the seemingly giant praise that he receives in Thomas
2. Two options then:
   • John B is with you
   • John B is against you
3. Marcion goes for the second option after having used him as the first option, and then uses and abuses John as a totem of Judaism
4. Is John a rival to Marcion? Most certainly not, he is a mute object that gets tossed and turned by marcion, played with, used, exploited - exactly like Thomas abuses his disciples. Does the Marcionite John ever make a clever remark? Does he have a solid argument? Does he even a good reputation?
5. Marcion abuses John by having Jesus' disciples assume that Jesus is either John or Elijah - and then Simon hits bullseye with his remark "You are the Christ!" (*Ev 9, 16-22) - and the reader is instructed how Jesus is neither a prophet nor of old, just something entirely different and brand new
6. Marcion abuses John again in *Ev 7,24-28 when he tells how fantastically great John B is - however even "the smallest in the kingdom" is greater than he, and again John gets dumped upon; first Marcion populates with the image of an ascetic, belittled as a reed, broken by the wind (!), or with a smooth talker (are you paying attention, dear DSS people?) - after which he puts john on stage and turns on all the spotlights - only to immediately rip him from the pedestal by telling that even the smallest in (Jesus!!!) kingdom is greater than John
7. Marcion again cries victory over John when in *Ev 11,1-2 he has his disciples ask him to teach them to pray like John taught his own disciples. And what does the Jesus of Marcion answer? "When you pray, don't stammer and stutter like the others (= John's disciples, who are merely repeating what John taught them) who think that using many words will enlarge their audience" - and then Marcion unpacks with the "Our Father"

Marcion uses John in the exact same way that Thomas uses his disciples: to ridicule, put down, reject, trash and trample him, to wipe his boots on his ass.
A rival figure for Marcion's theology? Don't make me laugh - he is an opponent for sure, yes, yet one who not only announces Jesus but simultaneously announces that he's not even worthy enough to tie his shoelaces. Marcion turns him into a spineless, worthless, utterly useless prophetic puppet of a failed and flawed religion: Judaism, and Marcion bests him every single time by more than a few miles

Embarrassing? The only embarrassing thing in all of Marcion is how far he goes in putting down John each and every single time

How do the gospels answer to that?
They instead have John suddenly baptise Jesus and diametrically oppose Marcion that way, turning Jesus into a slavish follower of John instead of the other way around. A fantastic find, that finally makes sense when departing from the incredibly insightful view that Vinzent presents us with

[mlinssen]

Marcion's is not the first story featuring John B, pre-synoptic gospels with euhemerization had preceded him. The priority of John is not an embarrassing problem for Judaizers, who need the messiah annointed by Eliyah according to Scripture; and it is equally not embarassing for those who understood that the proclamation of the conversion must precede the institution of the Eucharist for the acquisition of the nous must precede the application of the nous. It is only troublesome for Marcion that someone predicted the coming of Jesus and was able to preach appropriately the faith in him before Paul.

Given the plural there, can you at least name one?

It would seem that you have the order of Marcion and NT wrong by the way, unless you have one of those pre-synoptic gospels precede Marcion and present a John B who preaches a Judaic Messiah.
Even before Paul does? What exactly is your order then?

[Giuseppe]

Explain how John the Baptist is an "embarrassing and rival figure for the theology" of Marcion please, just name one single verse (or more) where that is the case

the passage where Jesus asks:
“What did you go out into the wilderness to look at?”

It seems to me that Marcion, by using the mouth of Jesus, is going to despise the crowds of people who followed John in the wilderness. The wilderness was probably an euphemism to say: a place where only few people were privileged by hallucinations of the Christ.

The episode witnesses a reality of wild prophetic hallucinations, a riotous diversity on which Marcion wanted to impose an embryo of 'orthodoxy'.

Hence, the previous existence of a legend of a visionary prophet, John, privileged by revelations, and by a lot of followers perceived as rival by Marcion.