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A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:45 pm
by Giuseppe
If Marcion (or anti-demiurgists before Marcion) wrote the epistles, and not the Jew Paul, then why was Marcion obliged to add an entire commentary called 'Antithesis' ?

Were not sufficient the epistles alone to make the argument that YHWH is evil ?

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:39 am
by Secret Alias

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:19 am
by MrMacSon
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:45 pm Were not sufficient the epistles alone to make the argument that YHWH is evil ?
Where does Paul make that argument?

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 am
by Giuseppe
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:19 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:45 pm Were not sufficient the epistles alone to make the argument that YHWH is evil ?
Where does Paul make that argument?
precisely that is the question, if you want to prove that the epistles were fabricated in an anti-demiurgist circle (Marcion + anti-demiurgists preceding Marcion, which is the Detering and Stuart Waugh's thesis).

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:16 am
by schillingklaus
The Catholic redactor does not make that argument, but redactorial fatigue shows that this had been the original assumption of Pseudo-Paul.

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:52 am
by MrMacSon
fwiw, the alleged Antithesis

The CREATOR GOD
of this World
THE GOOD GOD
Revealed by Christ
And out of the ground the Lord Yahweh made every tree to grow...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen.2:9; 3:1)For a corrupt tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bringeth forth corrupt fruit. (Luke 6:43)
And the Lord Yahweh called unto Adam,
and said unto him, “Where art thou?” (Genesis 3:9)
God ... knoweth all things.(John 3:20)
Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth,
hand for hand, foot for foot ... (Exodus 21:24)
And unto him that smiteth thee on the cheek
offer also the other... (Luke 6:29)
And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty,
"If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven,
and consume thee and thy fifty".
And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. (2 Kings 1:9-10)
[Jesus' disciples]: "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire
to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?"
He turned and rebuked them, and said,
"Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of; for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" (Luke 9:54-55)
...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him [Elisha]...and [he] cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty two children of them. (2 Kings 2:23,24) And they brought young children to Him...and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But Jesus ...said unto them “Allow the little children to come to Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:13,14)
And if a woman have issue, and if her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days; whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even... and if a woman have an issue of her blood ..beyond the time of her separation, ...she shall be unclean. (Leviticus 15:19,25) And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living on physicians, neither could be healed of any, came up behind [Jesus], and touched the border of His garment: and immediately her issue of blood ceased. (Luke 8:43,44)
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her,
and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes,
because he hath found some uncleanness in her:
then let him write her a bill of divorcement,
and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
(Deuteronomy 24:1)
Whosoever divorces his wife, and marries another,
commits adultery against her (Mk 10:11).
Moses, because of the hardness of our hearts,
allowed you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning this was not so.
(Matthew 19:8)
Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back,
when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them (Psalm 21:12).
Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them;
and he hot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
(Psalm 18:4)
Clouds and darkness are round about him ...(97:2a)
He sent darkness, and made it dark...(Psalm 105a).
He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath,
and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them (Psalm 78:49).
Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God,
that you may be able to withstand the evil one...
taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be
able to quench all the fiery arrows of the wicked
(Ephesians 6:16).
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this Aeon,
against spiritual wickedness in high places
(Ephesians 6:12)
Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive:
Thou hast received tribute from men. (Psalm 68:18)
Wherefore He saith, "When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
(Ephesians 4:8)
I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord Yahweh do all these things ( Isaiah 45:7).
Do they not err that devise evil? (Proverbs 14:22a)
God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all (John 1:5b)
God is love (1 John 4:16);
[Love] thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5d).
I the Lord your God am a jealous God (Exodus 20:5)....for the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14). Love knows no jealousy... (1 Corinthians 13:4)
For I the Lord God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate me (Exodus 20:5) Then came Peter to Him, and said, “Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I say not to you, until seven times: but , until seventy times seven.” (Matthew 18:23-22)
I am Yahweh, that is my name
And my glory to another will I not give
(Isaiah 42:8)
And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with thine own self with the glory I had with Thee before the world was. (John 17:5)
I form light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord Yahweh do all these things
( Isaiah 45:7).
Do they not err that devise evil? (Proverbs 14:22a)
.
God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5b)
God is love (1 John 4:16);
[Love] thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5d)
They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. (Joshua 6:21,24) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19,20,21)
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, Until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies...for the Lord fought for Israel. (Joshua 10:12-14) Be ye angry, yet not committing sin; Let not the sun be going down upon your wrath. (Ephesians 4:26)
He is a Jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord, then He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you...(Joshua 24:13,14) .
Love knows no jealousy... (1 Corinthians 13:4)
I will make them a horror and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a disgrace, an object of scorn, ridicule, and cursing, wherever I have banished them. And I will send against them sword and famine and plague, until they have perished from the land that I gave to them and their fathers. (Jeremiah 24:9, 10) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

mostly from http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcion/antithes.htm

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:05 am
by MrMacSon
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:19 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:45 pm Were not sufficient the epistles alone to make the argument that YHWH is evil ?
Where does Paul make that argument?
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:23 am precisely that is the question, if you want to prove that the epistles were fabricated in an anti-demiurgist circle (Marcion + anti-demiurgists preceding Marcion, which is the Detering and Stuart Waugh's thesis).
Did you mean, "Were not the epistles alone sufficient to make the argument that YHWH is evil ? "

If so, that's a rhetorical question.

As is
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:45 pm If Marcion (or anti-demiurgists before Marcion) wrote the epistles, and not the Jew Paul, then why was Marcion obliged to add an entire commentary called 'Antithesis' ?
Why do you frame your answer with reference to third parties such as Detering and Stuart Waugh; and provide weird vagueness, ie. "if you want to prove that the epistles were fabricated in an anti-demiurgist circle".

I don't want to prove that. Why put it on me to? (don't answer that, I don't want to continue any conversation with you)

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:43 am
by Giuseppe
As the argument goes, Marcion was obliged to write a commentary (the Antithesis) because he was unsure about the epistles making really his anti-demiurgist case.

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:09 am
by ABuddhist
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:43 am As the argument goes, Marcion was obliged to write a commentary (the Antithesis) because he was unsure about the epistles making really his anti-demiurgist case.
He could have been a subtle writer who wanted to reveal his teachings in stages - hence the commentary upon the epistles which he had written. A similar thing happens (albeit openly) in Buddhism, with, for example, Vasubandhu's "Treasury of the Abhidharma" and his autocommentary about the same work, in which he argued different positions.

Re: A strong argument pro authenticity of the Pauline epistles

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:17 pm
by schillingklaus
With or without Marcion, Paul's received epistles fully depend on Roman Catholicism as they identify illogically YHWH and The Father; further, even the marcionic version depends on themes only created in the process the conscious rejection of the properly gnostic exegesis of genesis 3, which could not develop within second temple Judaism: original sin, Satan vs YHWH, Adam and Eve clothed in paradise,...