Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

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Giuseppe
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Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Giuseppe »


They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

(Mark 6:13)


James 15:14-16:
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

As the argument goes, Mark was too much pauline to have a jewish-christian practice. In addition, a such practice was described by the presumed rival of Paul: James (or who for him).

Hence, Mark is based, without doubt, on a previous Jewish-Christian gospel.
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mlinssen
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:56 am
They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

(Mark 6:13)


James 15:14-16:
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

As the argument goes, Mark was too much pauline to have a jewish-christian practice. In addition, a such practice was described by the presumed rival of Paul: James (or who for him).

Hence, Mark is based, without doubt, on a previous Jewish-Christian gospel.

Mark 6:13 (And) ἐξελθόντες (having gone out), ἐκήρυξαν (they preached) ἵνα (that) μετανοῶσιν (they should repent). 13 καὶ (And) δαιμόνια (demons) πολλὰ (many) ἐξέβαλλον (they were casting out), καὶ (and) ἤλειφον (were anointing) ἐλαίῳ (with oil) πολλοὺς (many) ἀρρώστους (sick) καὶ (and) ἐθεράπευον (healing them).

James 5:14 ἀσθενεῖ (Is sick) τις (anyone) ἐν (among) ὑμῖν (you)?
προσκαλεσάσθω (Let him call near) τοὺς (the) πρεσβυτέρους (elders) τῆς (of the) ἐκκλησίας (church), καὶ (and) προσευξάσθωσαν (let them pray) ἐπ’ (over) αὐτὸν (him), ἀλείψαντες (having anointed) ‹αὐτὸν› (him) ἐλαίῳ (with oil) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ὀνόματι (name) τοῦ (of the) Κυρίου (Lord).
15 καὶ (And) ἡ (the) εὐχὴ (prayer) τῆς (-) πίστεως (of faith) σώσει (will save) τὸν (the one) κάμνοντα (ailing), καὶ (and) ἐγερεῖ (will raise up) αὐτὸν (him) ὁ (the) Κύριος (Lord), κἂν (and if) ἁμαρτίας (sins) ᾖ (he might be one) πεποιηκώς (having committed), ἀφεθήσεται (it will be forgiven) αὐτῷ (him).
16 Ἐξομολογεῖσθε (Confess) οὖν (therefore) ἀλλήλοις (to one another) τὰς (the) ἁμαρτίας (sins), καὶ (and) εὔχεσθε* (pray) ὑπὲρ (for) ἀλλήλων (one another), ὅπως (so that) ἰαθῆτε (you may be healed). πολὺ (Much) ἰσχύει (prevails) δέησις (the prayer) δικαίου (of a righteous man) ἐνεργουμένη (being made effective).

There's really nothing in common here, Giuseppe - save for the verb and the noun. But if not with oil, how else is someone anointed?

What is interesting is the different verbs, e.g. Luke 4:18 ἔχρισέν (He has anointed).
Mark 14:6 has μυρίσαι (to anoint).
John 9:11 πέχρισέν (anointed).
Acts 4:27 ἔχρισας (You anointed).
Acts 10:38 ἔχρισεν (anointed).
1 Cor 1:21 χρίσας (having anointed).
There's very little of the verb in Mark, and Acts ff appear built on top of the Chrism - thereby likely being of a later date than the gospels
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:56 am Hence, Mark is based, without doubt, on a previous Jewish-Christian gospel.
imho GMark reflects in Mark 6:13 a previous Jewish-Christian practise and ascribes it to the twelve
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Giuseppe
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:06 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:56 am Hence, Mark is based, without doubt, on a previous Jewish-Christian gospel.
imho GMark reflects in Mark 6:13 a previous Jewish-Christian practise and ascribes it to the twelve
Hence having implicitly approved a Jewish-Christian practice by the Pauline Jesus himself?
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by schillingklaus »

The epistle of James is purely Catholic homiletics and not Jewish by any stretch; further, the unction of the infirm is a Catholic thing, not a Jewish one.

Further, so-called Jewish Christianity is but an exaggeration of Catholicism into the Judaizing direction, not a precursor as apologists try to trick you into hallucinate.
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:17 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:06 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:56 am Hence, Mark is based, without doubt, on a previous Jewish-Christian gospel.
imho GMark reflects in Mark 6:13 a previous Jewish-Christian practise and ascribes it to the twelve
Hence having implicitly approved a Jewish-Christian practice by the Pauline Jesus himself?
I don't see any approval here. The anointing with oil also goes beyond the mandate given and was probably carried out on the twelve's own initiative.

Mark 6:7-11
7 And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts— 9 but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics.[a] 10 And he said to them, “Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. 11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.”

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Giuseppe
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:05 amprobably
It is clear that you are going to see some irony in Jesus commanding X and the disciples doing Y. I respect your POV, however I fear that you are going to attribute too much intelligence to "Mark" (author). It doesn't seem to me that the QI of Christian propagandists was so high.
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Re: Is Mark 6:13 based on a previous Jewish-Christian Gospel?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:17 am It is clear that you are going to see some irony in Jesus commanding X and the disciples doing Y.
No, imho it's not irony.

However, all words stemming from "oil" are associated in some sense with the disciples or the Galilean women.
to oil, anointing with oil (ἀλείφω - aleipho) ,
Mark 6:13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them
Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body

Mount of Olives (ὄρος τῶν ἐλαιῶν) Mark 11:1, Mark 13:3, Mark 14:26
Gethsemane (the oil press) Mark 14:32

It starts with the mission and ends with the betrayal. The do-over of the Galilean women is cancelled.

In contrast, the famous woman of Mark 14:3 pours perfume (μύρον - muron) over Jesus, not oil.
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