Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

What are your thoughts on this obscure passage?

http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-24.htm
Νῦν χαίρω ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, καὶ ἀνταναπληρῶ τὰ ὑστερήματα τῶν θλίψεων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ὑπὲρ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἡ ἐκκλησία,

"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church..."

I think this is the only passage in which a Pauline author has the chutzpah to suggest something was "lacking" in the tribulations of the Christ, and it's being fulfilled by him.

The context is about the supposed persecution of the church and Paul, and the need to stay strong.

Blood wrote:What are your thoughts on this obscure passage?

http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-24.htm
Νῦν χαίρω ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, καὶ ἀνταναπληρῶ τὰ ὑστερήματα τῶν θλίψεων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ὑπὲρ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἡ ἐκκλησία,

"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church..."

" ... for the body of him, which is the church .." is interesting.

.. Suggests that the church was anthropomorphized ...

Blood wrote:"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church..."

I think this is the only passage in which a Pauline author has the chutzpah to suggest something was "lacking" in the tribulations of the Christ, and it's being fulfilled by him.

Blood-

Great quote. Remember that "Paul" states that his interaction with "Christ" came from "...no man". The Vision/Revelation is Sealed. Nothing else matters from that point on. We can get a little farther here in understanding what that means when looking at the quote concerning "his version" as being the choice that has to be made. Beyond this, we may see that what is being set up is Completeness and that any other "Path" besides this "Church" is a false path.

There is nothing else to say because "Paul" has closed the circle to the faith. Neat Trick.

CW

MrMacSon wrote:.. Suggests that the church was anthropomorphized ...

Yes and no. Let's not forget that "ekklesia" doesn't mean anything else than "assembly". You can also use the word for a city council. An assembly of people is necessarily "anthropomorphized". Paul is just saying that he is collecting people to the cause, with Christ (the spirit) now working in him and afterwards living in each member of the assembly.

Blood wrote:What are your thoughts on this obscure passage?

http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-24.htm
Νῦν χαίρω ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, καὶ ἀνταναπληρῶ τὰ ὑστερήματα τῶν θλίψεων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ὑπὲρ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἡ ἐκκλησία,

"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church..."

I think this is the only passage in which a Pauline author has the chutzpah to suggest something was "lacking" in the tribulations of the Christ, and it's being fulfilled by him.

The context is about the supposed persecution of the church and Paul, and the need to stay strong.

Thoughts for blood.

INTRODUCTORY CONTEXT:

• Colossians 1 New International Version (NIV)
  1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
  2 To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters[a] in Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

onward Christian soldiers through
Thanksgiving and Prayer Col 1.3-14,
The Supremacy of the Son of God (15-21),
Paul’s Labor for the Church (22-29)

CONCLUDING CONTEXT:

• 28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
  29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.

PAUL's Labour for the "Divine Institute" aka "The Universal Early Church"

• "I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church..."

It seems to be a rhetorical exercise in suggestions. The historicity of the church for the Pauline authors is presented as far more substantial - in the spiritual sense of the word - than the tribulations of Christ/Chrest. The flesh of one of the Pauline authors is being associated with the body of Jesus (Docetism aside) and with the church or "Divine Institute" or "Church Organisation" (etc). How are people to view and classify such literary evidence? IDK.


My other thought is probably not fit for some present company, but I will not refrain from mentioning it.

There are some people who have taken the first little step of being sceptical of the historical Jesus.
There are also some people have taken the second little step of being sceptical of the historical Paul.
IMVHO the third little step is to sceptically examine the historical "Early Universal Church", not as a "Divine Institute" but as an "Organization of Men".

The second century was a long time ago. What sources do we have?

Ulan wrote:

MrMacSon wrote: "for the body of him, which is the church" .. Suggests that the church was anthropomorphized ...

Yes and no ... An assembly of people is necessarily "anthropomorphized". Paul is just saying that he is collecting people to the cause, with Christ (the spirit) now working in him and afterwards living in each member of the assembly.

Not necessarily: I was kind of reverse applying the definition of anthropomorphized - which is 'attributing human attributes or values (or both) to inhuman entities', such as animals, plants, objects, or structures, etc. - to the implication that Paul's body was the church ie. the narrative about Paul is a humanized version of the [growing] church in general. To me, it implies the narrative of Paul might have grown out of the developing church, or that part of the narrative might have.

As might the first part of that passage [imply the narrative of Paul, or just that part of the Pauline narrative]-

"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church ..."

See the other thread. He is phaulos, Jesus is chrestos. One is in a body of darkness, the other a body of light. There is also the substitution myth concept - namely that it is compatible with Docetism. Jesus doesn't suffer only his servants.

Stephan Huller wrote:See the other thread. He is phaulos, Jesus is chrestos. One is in a body of darkness, the other a body of light. There is also the substitution myth concept - namely that it is compatible with Docetism. Jesus doesn't suffer only his servants.

Yes, your discussion is quite fascinating.

What do you mean by "Jesus doesn't suffer only his servants" ??

MrMacSon wrote:Not necessarily: I was kind of reverse applying the definition of anthropomorphized - which is 'attributing human attributes or values (or both) to inhuman entities', such as animals, plants, objects, or structures, etc. - to the implication that Paul's body was the church ie. the narrative about Paul is a humanized version of the [growing] church in general. To me, it implies the narrative of Paul might have grown out of the developing church, or that part of the narrative might have.

As might the first part of that passage [imply the narrative of Paul, or just that part of the Pauline narrative]-

"I am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of Christ, in the flesh of me, for the body of him, which is the church ..."

Maybe the direction of my post wasn't clear. "Church" didn't have the full meaning of what it means today. "Church" just meant "the assembly of all people who believed in Jesus Christ and had died and were resurrected by baptism". As there wasn't any need for a Holy Spirit because Jesus Christ was that spirit himself in Paul's letters, "church" becomes "all people in which the spirit of Christ lives", which means a multipartite body for the spirit of Christ. It's hard to anthropomorphize a group of people.

The weird image of an anthropomorphized church comes from our extant image of church as institution or building. That's not what is meant, and which wasn't meant in Matthew either. Christ lived in and spoke through the believers.