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Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:28 am
by Sinouhe
Sure this is possible yet the parables of the gospels appear to be taken from a sayings list like Thomas. What if there was some community that was based around mystical sayings and Paul innovated from here?
I don’t believe in Q.
In my opinion, Q sayings are made up by Matthew. The sermon on the mount by example borrowed the James epistle.
We've found all these DSS manuscripts from one sect but Josephus says there were countless sects
Yes and Philo mention the Therapeutae which can be linked in a way or another with Essenes, ex-essenes or a greek branch of the essenes.

Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:40 am
by MrMacSon
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:18 am
Are you able to provide some information about these entities or tropes? eg. what scrolls they're in and who or what they might be associated with
The study of the DSS is a complicated work of cross-checking. And english is not my native language so it would be difficult for me to explain everything on this board but i can try to provide food for thought.

  • dead messianic figure
The teacher of Righteousness can be seen as a Messiah for multiple reasons.
Here are a few examples :

- He compare himself with the Isaiah Servant multiple times.
- He is sometimes named "the Interpreter of knowledge, teacher of the law", terms also used for "the prophet like Moses" in Dt 18:15 or the "messianic star" in Numbers 24:17 that Qumran both name "the "interpreter of the law".

  • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
- The self glorification hymn is about a Celestial divine Messiah quoting Isaiah 53, Isaiah 11. This text was associated with the Hodayot (wrote by or in the name of the Teacher) in the same Jar and fixed to the hodayot manuscripts. This implies that these 2 texts were linked theologically by the sect. Peter Schafer and Esther Eshel both agree that this celestial messiah in the Self Glorification hymn was the sect's vision of the teacher after his death.

See :
Peter Schafer : Two gods in Heaven
Esther Eshel : The identification of the speaker of the self-glorification Hymn


  • Suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
The teacher describe his persecution using Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 (among others suffering servants references). The celestial divine figure in the Self Glorification hymn quote Isaiah 53 for his condition (celestial but despised). Some other references to Isaiah 53 in the DSS, related to a mysterious character that can be associated to the Teacher.

  • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
The Pesharim in the DSS interpret the life of the Teacher using Scriptures in the same way that Christians interpret the life of Jesus using scriptures. Sometimes, they use the same verses.

  • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
Here are a few examples :

- Multiple verses of the same scriptures are used to describe Jesus and the Teacher
- They are the founder of the new covenant
- They teach the mysteries of God and the prophets
- They are a guide for their community
- They were betrayed
- They are the suffering servant of the scriptures
- They were rejected by some of their own followers
- They are the servants of God
- The holy spirit is on them
- The Teacher is dead but he will judge his enemies. He is dead but the sect mention him or someone like him, in heaven.
- The identification with Melchizedek

  • parallels between the sect and Christians
Here are a few examples :

- Damas
- Division of property. Punishment if someone is lying about his properties.
- Same rules about the divorce with the same verses quoted by Jesus and the sect
- prohibition of oaths
- The twelve men
- They can't travel with material goods
- A ritual meal with the Messiah
- The sons of light
- A life of celibacy
- Immortality of the soul
- The eschatology of the Messiah who will judge the world (40 years for the sect, one generation for Christians)
- Conflicts with the Sadducees and the Pharisees
- Baptism

Thank you!