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How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

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How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:54 pm
by ABuddhist
I ask because I understand that the Dead Sea Scrolls have affected biblical scholarship very dramatically. So I wonder how it affected marginal inquiries related to mythicism.

Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:03 pm
by GakuseiDon
ABuddhist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:54 pm I ask because I understand that the Dead Sea Scrolls have affected biblical scholarship very dramatically. So I wonder how it affected marginal inquiries related to mythicism.
I looked at my copies of Earl Doherty's "Jesus: Neither God Nor Man" and Dr Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why we have reason to doubt".

Dr Carrier mentions them a few times, but, other than support for apocalyptic ideas in Daniel and other early texts, he doesn't derive any real impact on mythicism AFAICS.

Doherty writes on page 532:

A brief word can be devoted to the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the immediate period after their discovery in 1945, there was considerable stir about the possibility of connections to be gleaned between the scrolls and Jesus and the early Christian community. But while the scrolls have provided a certain degree of background into which some aspects of Christian beginnings could be seen to fit or be related to, particularly in regard to apocalyptic expectation and early gnostic ideas, there was no Jesus to be found at Qumran...

Those imaginative scholars notwithstanding, the Dead Sea Scrolls can in no way support the existence of an historical Jesus. 207 New theories since Meier about the nature of the scrolls and their provenance, together with the nature of the Qumran site itself and the questioning of an Essene presence there, are interesting, but bring us no closer to an historical Christian founder.

Acharya S wrote on her website that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is unoriginal:
https://stellarhousepublishing.com/dead ... noriginal/

Over the years, news items have circulated about how “hints” and “insights” contained in the original texts among the famous Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in caves near the ancient site of Qumran can be found in the Bible. In other words, certain ideas in the scrolls also appear in the New Testament, meaning, of course, that the impression of Christianity as a “divine revelation” appearing whole cloth miraculously from the very finger of God is clearly erroneous...
...
It is easy to see why the Catholic Church would blanche upon the discovery of these scrolls, as it could be – and has been – argued that these texts erode the very foundation of Christianity. It appears that this news, however, when released slowly has little affect on the mind-numbing programming that accompanies Christian faith.

The bottom line is that the existence of the Old Testament and the intertestamental literature such as the Dead Sea Scrolls shows how Christianity is a cut-and-paste job – a fact I also reveal in The Christ Conspiracy, in a chapter called “The Making of a Myth,” which contains a discussion of some of the texts obviously used in the creation of the new faith. These influential texts evidently included some of the original Dead Sea Scrolls, serving not as “prophecy,” “prefiguring” or “presaging” but as blueprints of pre-existing, older concepts cobbled together in the New Testament.

Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:02 am
by Sinouhe
Multiple scholars radically changed their mind about Jesus and christians after the discovering of the DSS.

There must be tons of others but here is a list :
    I don't know why mythicists didn't study more the DSS. Carrier ignore almost completely the subject.
    This is for me, the best theory about the christ myth theory.
    We had everything in the DSS :
    • dead messianic figure
    • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
    • suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
    • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
    • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
    • parallels between the sect and christians

    Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

    Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:41 am
    by MrMacSon
    Sinouhe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:02 am
    We had everything in the DSS :
    • dead messianic figure
    • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
    • suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
    • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
    • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
    • parallels between the sect and christians
    Are you able to provide some information about these entities or tropes? eg. what scrolls they're in and who or what they might be associated with

    Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

    Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:18 am
    by Sinouhe
    Are you able to provide some information about these entities or tropes? eg. what scrolls they're in and who or what they might be associated with
    The study of the DSS is a complicated work of cross-checking. And english is not my native language so it would be difficult for me to explain everything on this board but i can try to provide food for thought.
    • dead messianic figure
    The teacher of Righteousness can be seen as a Messiah for multiple reasons.
    Here are a few examples :

    - He compare himself with the Isaiah Servant multiple times.
    - He is sometimes named "the Interpreter of knowledge, teacher of the law", terms also used for "the prophet like Moses" in Dt 18:15 or the "messianic star" in Numbers 24:17 that Qumran both name "the "interpreter of the law".
    • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
    - The self glorification hymn is about a Celestial divine Messiah quoting Isaiah 53, Isaiah 11. This text was associated with the Hodayot (wrote by or in the name of the Teacher) in the same Jar and fixed to the hodayot manuscripts. This implies that these 2 texts were linked theologically by the sect. Peter Schafer and Esther Eshel both agree that this celestial messiah in the Self Glorification hymn was the sect's vision of the teacher after his death.

    See :
    Peter Schafer : Two gods in Heaven
    Esther Eshel : The identification of the speaker of the self-glorification Hymn
    • Suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
    The teacher describe his persecution using Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 (among others suffering servants references). The celestial divine figure in the Self Glorification hymn quote Isaiah 53 for his condition (celestial but despised). Someother references to Isaiah 53 in the DSS, related to a mysterious character that can be associated to the Teacher.
    • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
    The Pesharim in the DSS interpret the life of the Teacher using Scriptures in the same way that Christians interpret the life of Jesus using scriptures. Sometimes, they use the same verses.
    • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
    Here are a few examples :

    - Multiple verses of the same scriptures are used to describe Jesus and the Teacher
    - They are the founder of the new covenant
    - They teach the mysteries of God and the prophets
    - They are a guide for their community
    - They were betrayed
    - They are the suffering servant of the scriptures
    - They were rejected by some of their own followers
    - They are the servants of God
    - The holy spirit is on them
    - The Teacher is dead but he will judge his ennemies. He is dead but the sect mention him or someone like him, in heaven.
    - The identification with Melchizedek

    • parallels between the sect and christians
    Here are a few examples :

    - Damas
    - Division of property. Punishment if someone is lying about his properties.
    - Same rules about the divorce with the same verses quoted by Jesus and the sect
    - prohibition of oaths
    - The twelve men
    - They can't travel with material goods
    - A ritual meal with the Messiah
    - The sons of light
    - A life of celibacy
    - Immortality of the soul
    - The eschatology of the Messiah who will judge the world (40 years for the sect, one generation for christians)
    - Conflicts with the sadducees and the pharisees
    - Baptism

    Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

    Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:15 am
    by John T
    Sinouhe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:02 am Multiple scholars radically changed their mind about Jesus and christians after the discovering of the DSS.

    There must be tons of others but here is a list :
      I don't know why mythicists didn't study more the DSS. Carrier ignore almost completely the subject.
      This is for me, the best theory about the christ myth theory.
      We had everything in the DSS :
      • dead messianic figure
      • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
      • suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
      • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
      • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
      • parallels between the sect and christians
      But wait there is more!

      The source of the dualism between good vs. evil. 1QS The Community Rule
      The promise of a resurrection and a common assembly with the 'gods'. 4Q427 The Thanksgiving Hymn, 4Q521 A Messianic Apocalypse.

      If you act fast we will even include the names of the demons that were cast out of heaven and thrown to earth.
      Call now because this is a limited time offer. :P

      Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

      Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:31 am
      by ABuddhist
      John T wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:15 am
      Sinouhe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:02 am Multiple scholars radically changed their mind about Jesus and christians after the discovering of the DSS.

      There must be tons of others but here is a list :
        I don't know why mythicists didn't study more the DSS. Carrier ignore almost completely the subject.
        This is for me, the best theory about the christ myth theory.
        We had everything in the DSS :
        • dead messianic figure
        • celestial Messiah (related to this dead messianic figure)
        • suffering servant related to this celestial messiah AND to this dead messianic figure
        • interpretation of the life of this dead messianic figure with scriptures (Pesher)
        • tons of parallels between Jesus and this messianic figure
        • parallels between the sect and christians
        But wait there is more!

        The source of the dualism between good vs. evil. 1QS The Community Rule
        The promise of a resurrection and a common assembly with the 'gods'. 4Q427 The Thanksgiving Hymn, 4Q521 A Messianic Apocalypse.

        If you act fast we will even include the names of the demons that were cast out of heaven and thrown to earth.
        Call now because this is a limited time offer. :P
        I thought that the dualism comes from Zoroastrianism.

        but sure - feel free to provide more details.

        Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

        Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:17 am
        by davidmartin
        Also the DSS show a believe in resurrection and most notably of all - hell. Hell popped up in later orthodoxy. but not in Paul or John's gospel and arguably not in Mark either. A direct straight arrow from the DSS to Christianity isn't very convincing, but that there was some kind of influence might be undeniable. I'll give you an example. In the DSS there is clear promotion of ritual cleanliness and washing. Something eschewed in Christianity, Jesus would never have gone near the woman with the issue of blood. These differences have to be accounted for. I think the DSS = influences but not the DSS = origins

        Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

        Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 am
        by Sinouhe
        davidmartin wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:17 am Also the DSS show a believe in resurrection and most notably of all - hell. Hell popped up in later orthodoxy. but not in Paul or John's gospel and arguably not in Mark either. A direct straight arrow from the DSS to Christianity isn't very convincing, but that there was some kind of influence might be undeniable. I'll give you an example. In the DSS there is clear promotion of ritual cleanliness and washing. Something eschewed in Christianity, Jesus would never have gone near the woman with the issue of blood. These differences have to be accounted for. I think the DSS = influences but not the DSS = origins
        Paul was a free electron and an innovator.
        Jesus’ character and teachings in the gospels are the results of these innovations from Paul. Like we know, Mark used the Pauline epistles and his teachings to create teachings for Jesus and stories in his gospel.

        By the way, several decades stands between most of the DSS and Paul, so i see christianity as a mutation or a different branch of the Qumran sect.

        Re: How did the Exposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Public Affect Mythicism and Anti-Mythicism?

        Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:05 am
        by davidmartin
        Sinouhe wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 am Paul was a free electron and an innovator.
        Jesus’ character and teachings in the gospels are the results of these innovations from Paul. Like we know, Mark used the Pauline epistles and his teachings to create teachings for Jesus and stories in his gospel.

        By the way, several decades stands between most of the DSS and Paul, so i see christianity as a mutation or a different branch of the Qumran sect.
        Sure this is possible yet the parables of the gospels appear to be taken from a sayings list like Thomas. What if there was some community that was based around mystical sayings and Paul innovated from here? That's also possible. The Odes provide evidence of just such a community which would be quite far removed from the Qumran sect. We've found all these DSS manuscripts from one sect but Josephus says there were countless sects
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