Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

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Giuseppe
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Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by Giuseppe »

Ambrogio Donini was a Marxist and a mythicist who knew the Russian works on mythicism. So in his History of Christianity:

From the end of the Peloponnesian War onwards, for over three centuries, the watchword of relief of the debts, associated with that of redistribution of the land, had often resonated in the Middle Ages, both in the East and in the West, inspiring attempts of revolt among impoverished peasants and artisans. The two claims already appear coupled in Demosthenes and Isocrates, since the fourth century BC, and still echo in Plutarch, at the dawn of our era. Indeed, the latter brings us back, in one of his Lives, to an episode singularly similar, in its religious repercussions, to the drama of Christ's passion and death.

This is the case of Cleomenes III, king of Sparta, who during the 111th century BC. C. had proposed to "cancel debts, redistribute land and emancipate the helots." Expelled from his own people, he took refuge in Alexandria in Egypt, organized a revolt against Ptolemy IV and in the face of the failure of this latter enterprise, he gave himself up to death. Before killing himself he had summoned twelve of his friends and supporters for a kind of "last supper": he had regretted having been betrayed and had invited everyone to desist from a useless struggle, as Jesus will do in Gethsemane. His corpse had been nailed to a cross and the populace, deeply struck by his tragic end and by a whole series of extraordinary events that had occurred after his crucifixion, had cried out to the miracle and proclaimed him "son of the gods". In this regard, it should be added that there were fairly close relations between the Spartans and the Jews, especially after the transfer of a group of Israelites to Sparta, at the invitation of King Areo (309-265 BC). The high priest Jason, in 1 68 BC. C., to escape the repression of Antiocus IV, had sought and found hospitality among the Spartans. It cannot therefore be excluded that the story of Cleomenes' "passion" 111 has left traces in the popular imagination in the land of Palestine

https://www.academia.edu/36379649/Ambro ... d_Compton_
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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:51 am Ambrogio Donini was a Marxist and a mythicist who knew the Russian works on mythicism. So in his History of Christianity:

From the end of the Peloponnesian War onwards, for over three centuries, the watchword of relief of the debts, associated with that of redistribution of the land, had often resonated in the Middle Ages, both in the East and in the West, inspiring attempts of revolt among impoverished peasants and artisans. The two claims already appear coupled in Demosthenes and Isocrates, since the fourth century BC, and still echo in Plutarch, at the dawn of our era. Indeed, the latter brings us back, in one of his Lives, to an episode singularly similar, in its religious repercussions, to the drama of Christ's passion and death.

This is the case of Cleomenes III, king of Sparta, who during the 111th century BC. C. had proposed to "cancel debts, redistribute land and emancipate the helots." Expelled from his own people, he took refuge in Alexandria in Egypt, organized a revolt against Ptolemy IV and in the face of the failure of this latter enterprise, he gave himself up to death. Before killing himself he had summoned twelve of his friends and supporters for a kind of "last supper": he had regretted having been betrayed and had invited everyone to desist from a useless struggle, as Jesus will do in Gethsemane. His corpse had been nailed to a cross and the populace, deeply struck by his tragic end and by a whole series of extraordinary events that had occurred after his crucifixion, had cried out to the miracle and proclaimed him "son of the gods". In this regard, it should be added that there were fairly close relations between the Spartans and the Jews, especially after the transfer of a group of Israelites to Sparta, at the invitation of King Areo (309-265 BC). The high priest Jason, in 1 68 BC. C., to escape the repression of Antiocus IV, had sought and found hospitality among the Spartans. It cannot therefore be excluded that the story of Cleomenes' "passion" 111 has left traces in the popular imagination in the land of Palestine

https://www.academia.edu/36379649/Ambro ... d_Compton_
Can we have a primary source for the number 12 for Cleomenes friends in his last hours ? I've not been able to find one.

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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by Giuseppe »

A note says:
See Baron, op. cit., p. 251; and especially Archibald Robertson, Le origini del cristianesimo, Milano, Parenti, 1959.

the work of Baron is A Social and Religious History of the Jews.
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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:49 am A note says:
See Baron, op. cit., p. 251; and especially Archibald Robertson, Le origini del cristianesimo, Milano, Parenti, 1959.

the work of Baron is A Social and Religious History of the Jews.
neither of these is a primary source.

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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by Giuseppe »

Plutarch surely is:

So fearing that his plans would be revealed, when noon came and he perceived that his guards were sleeping off their wine, he put on his tunic, opened the seam over his right shoulder, and with drawn sword sprang forth, accompanied by his friends, who were likewise arrayed, thirteen in number.

(Life of Cleomenes, 37)

Cleomenes + 12 = 13.
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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by ABuddhist »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:57 am Plutarch surely is:

So fearing that his plans would be revealed, when noon came and he perceived that his guards were sleeping off their wine, he put on his tunic, opened the seam over his right shoulder, and with drawn sword sprang forth, accompanied by his friends, who were likewise arrayed, thirteen in number.

(Life of Cleomenes, 37)

Cleomenes + 12 = 13.
I read it as indicating that he had 13 friends with him, all equipped as he was.
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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by Giuseppe »

Strange, because I read here https://www.jstor.org/stable/2708199?seq=1

...by one who is critical against the thesis advanced by Toynbee (that both Cleomenes and Jesus's biography would confirm a previous source about a "Saviour God myth"), that the idea that there were 13 at the table (i.e. Cleomenes + 12 friends) is conceded without objections of the kind you raise.
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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by andrewcriddle »

ABuddhist wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:14 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:57 am Plutarch surely is:

So fearing that his plans would be revealed, when noon came and he perceived that his guards were sleeping off their wine, he put on his tunic, opened the seam over his right shoulder, and with drawn sword sprang forth, accompanied by his friends, who were likewise arrayed, thirteen in number.

(Life of Cleomenes, 37)

Cleomenes + 12 = 13.
I read it as indicating that he had 13 friends with him, all equipped as he was.
No I agree that it means Cleomenes + 12 friends but the number 12 is hardly emphasised, which is why I missed it when skim-reading Plutarch . (Also if the supposed parallel is with Jesus at Gethsemane, Jesus had 11 companions at Gethsemane not 12, Judas having left to betray him.)

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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by perseusomega9 »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:42 am
ABuddhist wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:14 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:57 am Plutarch surely is:

So fearing that his plans would be revealed, when noon came and he perceived that his guards were sleeping off their wine, he put on his tunic, opened the seam over his right shoulder, and with drawn sword sprang forth, accompanied by his friends, who were likewise arrayed, thirteen in number.

(Life of Cleomenes, 37)

Cleomenes + 12 = 13.
I read it as indicating that he had 13 friends with him, all equipped as he was.
No I agree that it means Cleomenes + 12 friends but the number 12 is hardly emphasised, which is why I missed it when skim-reading Plutarch . (Also if the supposed parallel is with Jesus at Gethsemane, Jesus had 11 companions at Gethsemane not 12, Judas having left to betray him.)

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Re: Ambrogio Donini about Cleomenes III of Sparta

Post by schillingklaus »

The betrayal by Judah is an excessively late interpolation into the gospel story, from the times when Jews were made responsible for deicide.
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