2 Corinthians 12:7 -- Satan Stuck It to Me

[robert j]

It’s not necessary to look far afield for a solution for Paul’s “thorn”.

In the context of this portion of the Corinthian correspondence, Paul was desperate to win back the favor of the Corinthians. They had apparently informed Paul that they thought he and Titus were trying to take them by deceit to take advantage of them (2 Corinthians 12:16-17), and the Corinthians had been visited by Jewish missionaries they liked better than Paul (the so-called “super-apostles”).

The primary point of Paul’s story was not the journey to the 3rd heaven itself, but rather the revelations --- the claim of “unutterable words, not being permitted to man to speak”. Whether received from the man he knew as the story says, or directly by Paul himself as many like to interpret the story, Paul clearly implied that he knew the revelations (2 Corinthians 12:6-7).

Paul wrote that “I know a man”, and “he was caught-up into paradise”, and “he heard” the revelations. That is how Paul chose to frame the story. With the literal telling of the story as Paul wrote it --- and how many/most/all of his audience among the Corinthians might have read it --- Paul would have been told the revelations by the man he knows.

And as a result of knowing this amazing and unutterable knowledge, Paul claimed that he was given a thorn in his side as a messenger of Satan. It would not be surprising if Paul had some known physical malady that could serve as context for the thorn.

Neither Paul nor a man he knew was actually caught-up to the 3rd heaven, at least not without some fairy dust. And nothing in the claimed revelations is actually revealed --- I suspect the revelations were just a story element here for Paul. Paul was trying to have his cake and eat it too. In his competition with the super-apostles, Paul implied that he had this amazing knowledge gained from the 3rd heaven. But after dangling this enticement in front of their noses --- if Paul was eventually successful in winning- back the Corinthians --- he would be asked about this amazing knowledge by a curious audience.

Following a literal reading, for Paul to claim that he heard amazing revelations from some man he knows, but is not allowed to pass on the revelations himself, would be a lame excuse.

A much better excuse --- Paul could claim that he would not risk inflicting others with punishment from Satan by revealing to them forbidden knowledge.

That Paul would think a few steps ahead like this demonstrates one key to understanding Paul --- look for the flawed man.

robert j

[GakuseiDon]

Paul wrote that “I know a man”, and “he was caught-up into paradise”, and “he heard” the revelations. That is how Paul chose to frame the story. With the literal telling of the story as Paul wrote it --- and how many/most/all of his audience among the Corinthians might have read it --- Paul would have been told the revelations by the man he knows.

And as a result of knowing this amazing and unutterable knowledge, Paul claimed that he was given a thorn in his side as a messenger of Satan. It would not be surprising if Paul had some known physical malady that could serve as context for the thorn.

To me, it sounds like Paul had one too many revelations and, as a consequence, suffered a nervous breakdown that affected him physically, perhaps his ability to speak:

2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

What do you make of Paul writing that he "besought the Lord thrice"? Is there a significance to three times?

Then we have God speaking with Paul, either via the Scriptures or by inspiration. I'm not sure that it comes from the OT, which suggests Paul was in on-going communication with God

Following a literal reading, for Paul to claim that he heard amazing revelations from some man he knows, but is not allowed to pass on the revelations himself, would be a lame excuse.

A much better excuse --- Paul could claim that he would not risk inflicting others with punishment from Satan by revealing to them forbidden knowledge.

That Paul would think a few steps ahead like this demonstrates one key to understanding Paul --- look for the flawed man.

That's an interesting perspective. Something to mull over...

[gryan]

In the context of this portion of the Corinthian correspondence, Paul was desperate to win back the favor of the Corinthians. They had apparently informed Paul that they thought he and Titus were trying to take them by deceit to take advantage of them (2 Corinthians 12:16-17), and the Corinthians had been visited by Jewish missionaries they liked better than Paul (the so-called “super-apostles”).

Re: "they thought he and Titus were trying to take them by deceit to take advantage of them"

2 Cor 12:14-17
Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 16But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit. 17Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? 18I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?

Paul wrote: "I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit." In context, it seems they accused him of falsely claiming that he and Titus had no need for their financial support. In his own defense, he said it was because he did not want to burden them. As I read it, he was suggesting that he would welcome their financial support if they felt led to send it.

[robert j]

2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

What do you make of Paul writing that he "besought the Lord thrice"? Is there a significance to three times?

Then we have God speaking with Paul ...

There may be some significance of the number three, but perhaps it’s just an embellishment. Like Gandalf said in one of the Hobbit movies, “… all good stories deserve embellishment.”

But yeah, the nerve of this guy. He makes a big drama about one caught-up into the 3rd heaven and some amazing unutterable words not permitted to man to speak. Then --- in a rather nonchalant and casual manner --- he writes of having a two-way conversation with the Lord.

Others have also suggested that Paul suffered from mental illness. I think Paul was crazy --- crazy like a fox.

[ABuddhist]

There may be some significance of the number three, but perhaps it’s just an embellishment. Like Gandalf said in one of the Hobbit movies, “… all good stories deserve embellishment.”

But yeah, the nerve of this guy. He makes a big drama about one caught-up into the 3rd heaven and some amazing unutterable words not permitted to man to speak. Then --- in a rather nonchalant and casual manner --- he writes of having a two-way conversation with the Lord.

Others have also suggested that Paul suffered from mental illness. I think Paul was crazy --- crazy like a fox.

Have you written anything at greater length about the idea that Paul was a scammer? Such a perspective, not tied to conspiracy theories, is one which I wish that more would address.

[robert j]

There may be some significance of the number three, but perhaps it’s just an embellishment. Like Gandalf said in one of the Hobbit movies, “… all good stories deserve embellishment.”

But yeah, the nerve of this guy. He makes a big drama about one caught-up into the 3rd heaven and some amazing unutterable words not permitted to man to speak. Then --- in a rather nonchalant and casual manner --- he writes of having a two-way conversation with the Lord.

Others have also suggested that Paul suffered from mental illness. I think Paul was crazy --- crazy like a fox.

Have you written anything at greater length about the idea that Paul was a scammer? Such a perspective, not tied to conspiracy theories, is one which I wish that more would address.

I don’t usually refer to Paul as a scammer. I think a better description is an itinerant, entrepreneurial Jewish Specialist. Every one of his letters can be seen as a donor letter. He was offering Judaism-Lite to interested Gentiles.

I often ask myself this question, was Paul a true believer? That is, did he actually believe in the spiritual offerings that he crafted from the scriptures? And just as importantly --- and perhaps a more accessible question --- what came first, the spiritual well-being of his patrons, or his coin purse?

This 3-part OP might only serve as a prelude to the wider question ---

Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar --- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8363