Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

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robert j
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Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by robert j »

Paul’s Adam Christology, and … was Jesus a pre-existing heavenly entity in Paul? And ---
make-up your mind Tabor.

I’m not being critical of Tabor for changing his mind. I think it’s a good thing when investigators are willing to reconsider their conclusions. It’s just that I think Tabor had it right the first time.

In his Paul and Jesus (2012), James Tabor provides a good summary of Paul’s Adam Christology ---

So transformed, Jesus was, according to Paul, the first “Adam” of a new genus of Spirit-beings in the universe called “Children of God,” of which many others were to follow. (p. 11)

Paul taught that when Christ returned in the clouds of heaven, this new race of Spirit-beings would experience its heavenly transformation … This instantaneous “mass apotheosis” would mark the end of the old age that began with Adam, and the beginning of a new creation inaugurated by Christ as a new or second Adam. (pp. 13-14)

Tabor furthers this interpretation with his paraphrase of a passage in 1 Corinthians ---

Paul uses the resurrection of Christ … viewing Jesus as the prototype of what will take place in the future for all the dead that will be raised at Jesus’ coming. Just as God created Adam “from the dust” with a physical body, Christ, through his resurrection from the dead, became a new heavenly Adam, with a spiritual body …
1. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
2. The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam [Christ] became a living spirit.
3. It is not the spiritual that is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
4. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
5. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:45-49) (p. 62)

Tabor sees a relationship between Paul’s Adam Christology and the one that did not grasp equality with God in the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 –

The allusions to Adam in the Genesis story are unmistakable. Adam is the one who tried to “grasp” equality with God, and thus he lost his potential to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever (Genesis 3:5, 22-23). As a “man of dust”, he and all his descendants were doomed to return to dust, with no hope of escaping death (Genesis 3:19). (p. 119).

Then Tabor states his position on pre-existence, only providing a few alternate opinions in a footnote ---

In contrast to Adam, Paul believed that Christ, before he was born as the human Jesus, existed from the beginning in the form of God, and had equality with God. (p. 119, and with footnote 11 on pp. 255-256)

In support of pre-existence, Tabor wrote (italics are Tabor’s) ---

Paul does, however, believe that Christ was an agent in the creation in the world, and gave up the riches of his heavenly status, taking on the form of a mortal man:

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist (1 Corinthians 8:6) (p. 119)

I think later Paulinist texts can be useful, but certainly not dispositive, in the understanding of Paul. Tabor cites a couple of subsequent Paulinist texts that provide clear evidence for the belief in pre-existence by those authors ---

He [Christ] is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and earth … all were created through him and for him. He is before all things … (Colossians 1:15-17) (p. 120)

The letter of Hebrews, which was also written after Paul, but probably influenced by his thinking, says that Christ was the one “through whom God created the world” (Hebrews 1:2). (p. 120)

So far, I’m generally with Tabor on his characterizations of Paul’s Adam Christology, and on the pre-existence of Paul’s JC figure.

Or Not?

But in his subsequent 2020 work, Paul’s Ascent to Paradise, Tabor changes his tune on pre-existence.

Tabor, in a discussion on the hymn in Philippians, now states a different position ---

Still, I find it doubtful that Paul sees Jesus as a pre-existent divine heavenly figure here or elsewhere. (p. 88, footnote 26)

In a chapter on Paul’s message and mission, Tabor revisits Paul’s use of Adam and focuses in more detail on the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11. Tabor mentions a few scholars that have questioned the concept of pre-existence in Paul including James Dunn, Jerome Murphy-O’Conner, and Charles Talbert (p. 28).

On the question of pre-existence in the Philippians 2 hymn, Tabor writes that the debate “has been extensive” and that “I find the case that Talbert makes quite persuasive” (p. 28).

Tabor interprets the Philippians hymn, apparently following Talbert (Italics are Tabor's, pp. 28-30) ---

He was in the form of God,
But did not consider equality with God
Something to be grasped,
but emptied himself,
taking on the form of a slave,

Being in the likeness of men,
and found in human form, he humbled himself
becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

Because of this God has highly exalted him ...

Talbert argues that the hymn is not presenting the notion of a pre-existent descending/ascending heavenly figure ... Rather than a three-stage move, from heaven, to earth, and back to heaven, Talbert sees two stages --- earthly mortal to heavenly glorification --- precisely the pattern that Paul expects for himself and those "in Christ".

Here a second "Adam", who though made in God's image (Genesis 1:26), does not grasp at equality with God, as the first Adam did when he took the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3:5-6)

Tabor sees the figure in the Philippians hymn as a “counter example” to Adam (italics are Tabor’s) ---

The case of Jesus … He too, as a human being, was made in the image of God, but rather than “grasp for” equality with God, he humbled himself, becoming a servant --- even to the point of dying on the cross. Because of this he is highly exalted, to the highest place in the cosmos … (p, 30)

I think there is a problem with Tabor’s equivalence of Adam’s attempt to grasp some level of equality with God in the Garden, with a proposed human JC figure seemingly having the ability to grasp equality with God as well. After Adam’s failure in the Garden, and with Adam and all his descendent doomed to return to dust, how could a human JC figure --- or any human --- have a similar ability as Adam did to grasp equality with God?

There is a large body of scholarship on the question of pre-existence in Paul, and I don’t see Tabor as a leading investigator on the issue. But Tabor’s apparent waffling on the issue provided an easy way to raise the question.

I think pre-existence provides the greatest explanatory power for the concepts in the extant letters.

Unfortunately, Paul’s letters are notably short on Christology. It would be reasonable to assume that Paul’s evangelizing visit with each of his congregations included a full presentation of his Christology. If those groups had not accepted the basic premise of his salvific and redemptive JC figure as shown to them by Paul from the scriptures, they would not have become important enough for Paul to send follow-up donor-letters around the perimeter of the Aegean Sea. Paul’s letters are focused on local issues, and Paul generally only provided Christological reminders as he addressed the implications of his JC figure for those specific real-life issues brought-up by his audiences.


robert j
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JoeWallack
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Whosonfirst?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
"Mark's" Mary, "Matthew's" Mary and "Luke's" Mary followed a Bar. The Bartender said, "Which one of you ordered the Bloody Mary?".
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John T
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by John T »

robert j wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:53 am
Unfortunately, Paul’s letters are notably short on Christology. It would be reasonable to assume that Paul’s evangelizing visit with each of his congregations included a full presentation of his Christology.

robert j
Well, not exactly. "When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:1-2
robert j
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by robert j »

The added highlights are mine ---
John T wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:33 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:53 am
Unfortunately, Paul’s letters are notably short on Christology. It would be reasonable to assume that Paul’s evangelizing visit with each of his congregations included a full presentation of his Christology.

robert j
Well, not exactly. "When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:1-2
Paul's Christology was apparently a big item on the agenda during his visit.

Some among the sophisticated Corinthians seem to have incorporated Paul's JC figure into a more knowledge or wisdom-based spirituality --- Paul and Those Pesky Corinthians viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2797
Last edited by robert j on Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gryan
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by gryan »

I'm wondering whether Gal 4:4-6 implies that Jesus was a pre-existing heavenly entity or not.

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son,
born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law,
so that we might receive adoption as sons.
And because you are sons,
God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,
crying, 'Abba! Father!'
So you are no longer a slave,
but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God."

---------

I think not. I think this implies that Jesus came into existence like others of us who are "born of a woman" eg. like his brother, James.

I wonder if this passage from Hebrews adds an un-Pauline element of personal pre-incarnate intention on the part of Jesus:

Heb 2:14-17
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood,
he himself likewise partook (μετέσχεν) of the same things,
that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death,
that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect..."

"Partook" seems to imply personal intention. But the word μετέχω can just mean share in, participate in, belong to. And elsewhere in Hebrews it does not imply pre-existence:

Heb 7:13
He of whom these things are said belonged to (μετέσχηκεν) a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar.

None of these particular passages necessarily imply pre-existence, IMHO.
ABuddhist
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:33 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:53 am
Unfortunately, Paul’s letters are notably short on Christology. It would be reasonable to assume that Paul’s evangelizing visit with each of his congregations included a full presentation of his Christology.

robert j
Well, not exactly. "When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:1-2
Brief passages about Christology are fully compatible with the claim that "Paul’s letters are notably short on Christology."
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by GakuseiDon »

robert j wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:53 amTabor sees the figure in the Philippians hymn as a “counter example” to Adam (italics are Tabor’s) ---

The case of Jesus … He too, as a human being, was made in the image of God, but rather than “grasp for” equality with God, he humbled himself, becoming a servant --- even to the point of dying on the cross. Because of this he is highly exalted, to the highest place in the cosmos … (p, 30)

I think there is a problem with Tabor’s equivalence of Adam’s attempt to grasp some level of equality with God in the Garden, with a proposed human JC figure seemingly having the ability to grasp equality with God as well. After Adam’s failure in the Garden, and with Adam and all his descendent doomed to return to dust, how could a human JC figure --- or any human --- have a similar ability as Adam did to grasp equality with God?
Wouldn't EVERY man have the same ability -- and desire -- to grasp equality with God, due to every man being made in the image of God?

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image [eikon] and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Those Christians in the Second Century who believed that Jesus was Christ by righteousness also believed that any man could have become Christ, if they lived a perfect life. That is arguably what Paul is claiming: obedience to God, to the point of crucifixion, thus God raising him as Son of God with power.

Adam: made in the image of God, grasped for immortality, (eventually) dies because of disobedience. All his descendants die also.

Christ: made in the image of God, didn't grasp for immortality, died, and was made immortal because of obedience. All his spiritual descendants will be made immortal also.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Whosonfirst?

Post by MrMacSon »

JoeWallack wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:21 am
"Mark's" Mary, "Matthew's" Mary and "Luke's" Mary followed a Bar

  • ie. "Mary" walked into a bar carrying Apostolic Fathers' cosplay effigies of herself and of 'Mary Magdalene'
gryan
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by gryan »

gryan wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:45 pm I'm wondering whether Gal 4:4-6 implies that Jesus was a pre-existing heavenly entity or not.

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son,
born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law,
so that we might receive adoption as sons.
And because you are sons,
God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,
crying, 'Abba! Father!'
So you are no longer a slave,
but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God."
Re: "God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law"

"the order of Paul's verbs has the Son's sending before his birth" --A. Das

Of the reasons given for the preexistence of the Son suggested by Das, this one strikes me as most suggestive.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Paul, Adam, and Adam Walked in a Bar

Post by GakuseiDon »

gryan wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:22 pmRe: "God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law"

"the order of Paul's verbs has the Son's sending before his birth" --A. Das

Of the reasons given for the preexistence of the Son suggested by Das, this one strikes me as most suggestive.
Where does A. Das believe that the Son was sent to before his birth?
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