Seafaring in Thomas?

[mlinssen]

Logion 64

ⲟⲩⲛ ̅ⲧⲁ ⲉⲓ ϩⲛ ̅ ϩⲟⲙⲧ` ⲁ ϩⲉⲛ ⲉⲙⲡⲟⲣⲟⲥ
have I some(PL) copper to some(PL) Traveller

ἔμπορος: I.one who goes on shipboard as a passenger, Lat. vector, Od.
II.= ὁ ἐν πόρῳ ὤν, any one on a journey, a traveller, wanderer, Trag.
III.a merchant, trader, Lat. mercator, Hdt., etc.:—metaph., ἔμπορος βίου a trafficker in life, Eur.
1 ἔμ-πορος, ον

Only Revelation has the other 4 of the 5 occurrences, whereas Matthew 13:45 inserts in into the story about the pearl - there is a trader (native Coptic) there in Thomas as well as a buyer of course, but most certainly no Traveller or Emporos

Logion 76

ⲉⲩⲛ ̅ⲧⲁ ϥ` ⲙ̅ ⲙⲁⲩ ⲛ̅ ⲟⲩ ⲫⲟⲣⲧⲓⲟⲛ
have he therein [dop] a Load

φορτίον: 1.a load, burden, Ar., Xen.
2.a ship's freight or lading, Lycurg.: in pl. wares, merchandise, Hes., Hdt., attic
3.of a child in the womb, Xen.
4.metaph., φ. ἄρασθαι to take a heavy burden upon one, Dem.
Dim. only in form.

One of the mysteriously magical giveaways that Matthew wrote Luke: he copies Thomas logion 90and makes up his own word, yet also uses the cargo to insult the Pharisees and Luke's copy contains that too - yet Acts uses it properly and Gal 6:5 makes a mess of it again

Logion 21

ϣⲓⲛⲁ ϫⲉ ⲛⲉ ⲛ ⲗⲏⲥⲧⲏⲥ ϩⲉ ⲉ ϩⲓⲏ ⲉ ⲉⲓ ϣⲁⲣⲱ ⲧⲛ ̅
So-that : will-not the(PL) Robber fall to path to come toward you(PL)

λῃστής: a robber, plunderer, Soph., Eur., Xen.; esp. by sea, a pirate, rover, buccaneer, Hdt., Thuc., etc

It's hilarious to see how 2 pirates are crucified along with Jesus, and for a change only 2 Cor 11:26 has the word outside of the gospels! Even Barabbas gets named one

Perhaps there are more words but these have bothered me for a while now: evidently these don't belong in the NT - or on shore, for that matter

[Charles Wilson]

Mlinssen --
I had a long PM which was promptly rejected (I forgot!). I Cut 'n Pasted the contents into a Post and it was quickly lost. I might reconstruct it tomorrow if you are interested but I'm not doin' so good on the Board today.

Something from a few years back on another Board crossed my mind and I finally found it.
BTW, the seafaring part has meaning in the NT with Herod opening a Safe Harbor at Caesarea. See Matthew 7 and elsewhere. I have several Posts on the matter.

Anywho, from the old Post (very slightly edited here):

"...Your analysis of Matthew 7: 13 has a great deal of value.
You write: " Moreover, in this same verse (Matt 7:13), the Aramaic word "mubla" is translated as "leads" ("..broad is the road that leads to loss and many are those who go in it"). This word "mubla" can also be translated as "merchandise", "cargo", or "burden". "
I vote for "Merchandise" and ESPECIALLY "Cargo"..."

Matthew 7: 7 - 14 (RSV):

[7] "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
[8] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

This is a Herod Story through and through, describing the building of Caesarea and the Safe Harbor there. Herod hocks everything, including the royal furniture, to buy grain from the Egyptian Procurator Petronius. Egyptian Jokes all over. Someone knew their OT.

If I may, then, verse 13 should read:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that destroys [ships and] CARGO, and those who enter by it are many.



The wind and waves are quite treacherous surrounding Caesarea.
There was seafaring material in the NT and it might point back to your work.

CW

[Leucius Charinus]

There is also a seafaring phrase from the opening of NHC 6.1 - "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles" as follows:

We found a ship moored at the shore ready to embark, and we spoke with the sailors of the ship about our coming aboard with them.

Also FWIW:

Ranking the importance of the NHL by the Codex bindings

Codices 2, 6, 9 and 10 are "bound with a high quality leather cover, and leather reinforcement lining spine"

Codices 1, 3, 7 and 11 are "bound with an undistinguished primitive cover."

Codices 4, 5 and 8 are "bound with a bargain basement cover, cheap papyrus, and no flap."

Codex 12: "... is poorly preserved."

Codex 13: "... is reduced to 16 pages"

From "The Discovery of the Nag Hammadi Codices" by James M. Robinson.

This may indicate that some codices were somehow more important than others:

[mlinssen]

There is also a seafaring phrase from the opening of NHC 6.1 - "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles" as follows:

We found a ship moored at the shore ready to embark, and we spoke with the sailors of the ship about our coming aboard with them.

Also FWIW:

Ranking the importance of the NHL by the Codex bindings

Codices 2, 6, 9 and 10 are "bound with a high quality leather cover, and leather reinforcement lining spine"

Codices 1, 3, 7 and 11 are "bound with an undistinguished primitive cover."

Codices 4, 5 and 8 are "bound with a bargain basement cover, cheap papyrus, and no flap."

Codex 12: "... is poorly preserved."

Codex 13: "... is reduced to 16 pages"

From "The Discovery of the Nag Hammadi Codices" by James M. Robinson.

This may indicate that some codices were somehow more important than others:

Naturally there's also the abundant ship movements in Mark and such, that at some point have led me to think of Dionysus

The Gnostic Society Library
The Nag Hammadi Library

The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles
Translated by Douglas M. Parrott and R. McL.Wilson

You can forget about any and all "translations" from this zealous religiot:

viewtopic.php?p=129351#p129351

Finally, it must be observed that Gnosticism, for Philip , was a religion. Compared with the faith of a Paul it may represent a decline; in the light of Christian history as a whole it may be condemned as false, indeed, a travesty of the truth; but one cannot read the closing lines of 'saying' 125, or 'saying' 127, without a sense that for the author this was a faith in which he found a meaning for life.

Needless to say, for R. McL. Wilson lying and cheating was an integral part of his own religion

[Leucius Charinus]

Naturally there's also the abundant ship movements in Mark and such, that at some point have led me to think of Dionysus

There is also a great deal of seafaring in Homer's Odyssey and Iliad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships

The Gnostic Society Library
The Nag Hammadi Library

The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles
Translated by Douglas M. Parrott and R. McL.Wilson

You can forget about any and all "translations" from this zealous religiot:

viewtopic.php?p=129351#p129351

Finally, it must be observed that Gnosticism, for Philip , was a religion. Compared with the faith of a Paul it may represent a decline; in the light of Christian history as a whole it may be condemned as false, indeed, a travesty of the truth; but one cannot read the closing lines of 'saying' 125, or 'saying' 127, without a sense that for the author this was a faith in which he found a meaning for life.

Needless to say, for R. McL. Wilson lying and cheating was an integral part of his own religion

Mainstream scholarship quite often places Paul and the canonical gospels on pedestals and then berate the apocryphal literature as being inferior. Their major claim to support this relegation is that the NT Apocrypha have all been long ago considered and rejected by the Church [industry].

Long live the heretics !!!!

What Christian academics think about the Apocryphal gospels

"insipid and puerile amplifications" [Ernest Renan]

"excluded by their later and radical light" [John Dominic Crossan]

"severely conditoned responses to Jesus ... usually these authors deny his humanity" [Robert M. Grant]

"they exclude themselves" [M.R. James]

"The practice of Christian forgery has a long and distinguished history" [Bart Ehrman]

"The Leucian Acts are Hellenistic romances, which were written to appeal to the masses" [Watson E. Mills, Roger Aubrey Bullard]

"The key point ... [NT Apocrypha] have all been long ago considered and rejected by the Church.

"The names of apostles ... were used by obscure writers to palm off their productions; partly to embellish and add to ... partly to invent ... partly to support false doctrines; decidedly pernicious, ... nevertheless contain much that is interesting and curious ... they were given a place which they did not deserve." [Tischendorf]

"Gnostic texts use parody and satire quite frequently ... making fun of traditional biblical beliefs"[April Deconick]

"heretics ... who were chiefly Gnostics ... imitated the books of the New Testament" [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

"enterprising spirits ... pretended Gospels full of romantic fables and fantastic and striking details, their fabrications were eagerly read and largely accepted as true by common folk who were devoid of any critical faculty and who were predisposed to believe what so luxuriously fed their pious curiosity." "the heretical apocryphists, composed spurious Gospels in order to trace backward their beliefs and peculiarities to Christ Himself." [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

"the fabrication of spurious Acts of the Apostles was, in general, to give Apostolic support to heretical systems, especially those of the many sects which are comprised under the term Gnosticism. The Gnostic Acts of Peter, Andrew, John, Thomas, and perhaps Matthew, abound in extravagant and highly coloured marvels, and were interspersed by long pretended discourses of the Apostles which served as vehicles for the Gnostic predications. The originally Gnostic apocryphal Acts were gathered into collections which bore the name of the periodoi (Circuits) or praxeis (Acts) of the Apostles, and to which was attached the name of a Leucius Charinus, who may have formed the compilation." [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Apocr ... maries.htm

[mlinssen]

Naturally there's also the abundant ship movements in Mark and such, that at some point have led me to think of Dionysus

There is also a great deal of seafaring in Homer's Odyssey and Iliad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships

Mainstream scholarship quite often places Paul and the canonical gospels on pedestals and then berate the apocryphal literature as being inferior. Their major claim to support this relegation is that the NT Apocrypha have all been long ago considered and rejected by the Church [industry].

Long live the heretics !!!!

I don't care for or about mainstream scholarship, as it is exactly that: average and mediocre, like everything mainstream.
If neither Candida Moss nor the clowns that do her peer reviewing realise that Jesus nor Christ is ever written out in full, for example: then what magic knowledge do they possess?

Let's face it: if you fail to become anyone of merit you can always become an academic - all it takes is lifelong suffering, like a rat on a starvation diet, and doesn't that fit wonderfully well with the default complexion of Christian?!