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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:09 am
by MrMacSon
And following on, soon after the excerpt in my previous post:
18.00
" ... when you look at the Christian religion, what they're claiming is, can be accomplished by their savior is supernatural to the highest degree: that people can be, have their flesh changed.
"The people can be translated to heaven. That the promise of God to Abraham to make us children on stars: meaning, in Philo's interpretation, that we literally live as stars in heaven.
"Those beliefs require a god. They don't require a man so, while it's outlandish to modern sensibility that there wasn't someone named Jesus, I find it equally incredible to believe that ancient people thought a human magician could accomplish the things that are credited to Jesus.
"So, ... you pick your poison.
"Do you really believe that a human being was turned into a god capable of the most amazing things possible or was an amazing god brought down the level of human being to make him seem less contradictory to monarchism?
"And I believe the latter but, you know, a case obviously has been made for the other.
" ... the reason I call it the Jewish myth of Jesus is that I find what I’m proposing to be more compatible with Judaism and Samaritanism.
"I believe it's easier to believe that: the Jewish and Samaritan tradition of a man hidden in the Pentateuch narrative.
"I believe that's the germane seed of the gospel, rather than an actual historical figure who somehow fulfilled Old Testament prophecies about a Christ."
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:57 am
by MrMacSon
38.08
" ... there was this notion that they only saw the Ish covering his person and disguising him[self(?)]. And then afterwards He allowed them, you know, to reveal who he was. And in that narrative there is a line that says that, ‘we are sons,’ ah, ‘we're all sons of Ish.’
"And Augustine reads a similar line from, I believe, the Psalms as meaning 'sons of Christ'. So, my point is that there is this Greek culture of Christianity that had very little knowledge of Hebrew; that was trying their best to understand 'the Jewish or the Samaritan origins of Christianity' but couldn't do so, I believe, because of their lack of ability in Hebrew.
"And I think that there is reason to believe that there was a Jewish Samaritan underpinning to Christianity maybe in the period, that dark period, between the destruction of Jerusalem and, let's say, middle of the second century."
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:54 am
by mlinssen
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:54 am
mlinssen wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:10 am
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 pm
"And I think that the early church fathers knew that to be true [ie. that 'Jesus' or the forerunner to Jesus was the Old Testament [concept], second power of God]. The evidence from their writings suggested it was true."
(From the vid of course, not your own statement, Mac)
A real apologist, and a
true Judaiser at that. Does he mix in the words historical and historical records as well?
The full discussion (I transcribed this video, as I often do with interesting propositions and discussions like this, several days ago) :
11.26
"Both Marcion and Justin think that the man of the Pentateuch, who, as I mentioned earlier, did all the things with the patriarchs, was the main character in the gospel.
"So, already, there you have this notion that, what you want to call Judaism or Samaritanism, or whatever you want to call it, that there was the ground for a second power, that was a man or anthropomorphic, that was expected to interact with humans at the end of time.
"And, so, all I can say, from my point of view, is that, at the end of the second century, again, for reasons that involve speculation, there was this counter-force that said that wanted to flatline all the Israelite religions.
12.21
"So, for instance, you have in Samaritan sources, around the time of Commodus [r.176-92AD] that Alexander Aphrodisias apparently went to the Samaritan people and had a debate about whether there was one god or not. And, at the end of the debate, he didn't like the outcome and he murdered all the Samaritans. And it's a long story and it, it's preserved in a 14th century Samaritan source.
"Then, at the same time, you have, in Jewish sources, their patriarch Judah who's friends with the emperor, taking Greek baths, and reshaping the Jewish religion; and introducing the concept of the Lord of the world or, you know, the cosmocrats into Jewish religion.
"And then, at the same time (or the similar time) you have Irenaeus who is just dogmatic about there being one god in Christianity. And that even, where you see in the Old Testament, that there is this god man: that really there's, he's just the Father; Father's with him. And there's only one god.
"So Alan Brent, who is my absolute favorite New Testament scholar, makes, you know, a very compelling case that in the early 3rd century, as a prelude to the collapse of the Roman Empire, you know, the emperors were just obsessive about reinforcing their authority, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to think that Christianity succumbed to this influence.
13.57
"And one of the results was that we don't speak as, we don't speculate about Jesus being this Old Testament second power of God.
"And I think that the early church fathers knew that to be true. The evidence from their writings suggested it was true. And I think that the eventual emphasis of Jesus, as a son of Mary, as born from a virgin, came to emphasize his 'historical human birth'.
"I don't want to bore you too much but if you actually look at Irenaeus, the way he develops in Book Three of Against Heresies, you can see that, even there, it's not clear that the man born of a virgin was named Jesus.
"The name Jesus does not appear as often as you think in the writings of Irenaeus.
"And I would even argue that, if you read Book Three, you could imagine that he believed that the baby that came from Mary was named ‘Man’ ...
15.16
"But I think that there were early Christians, like Markion, like Justin, who would go into their churches and venerate...a second power that was named ‘Man.’ And later that being was named Jesus. But not originally."
It is evident that you are missing my point, but what is the one that you are trying to make?
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:06 am
by gryan
My congratulations to Stephan Huller and a very engaging interview. I listened to every minute of it, and I for one was not bored.
I learned a new word: biographize. I particularly appreciated the connections between point of view on history and biography.
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:33 pm
by Secret Alias
When my wife preps for corporate interviews they usually know all the questions beforehand. I had no idea where this was going. I learned a lot. Like DON'T wave your hands in the air like you just don't care.
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:54 pm
by John T
I was very impressed with Stephan's ability to quote so many things off the top of his head, and pronounced some of the hardest names/terms with such ease.
But, was Tertullian right about Marcion?
"The Marcionites are those whom the apostle John designated as antichrists, for they deny that Christ has come in the flesh....Now, the more firmly the antichrist Marcion had seized this assumption, the more prepared was he, of the course, to reject the bodily substance of Christ"....Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.327.
Could this be why Stephan dodge the question as to if he believes there was a historical/physical Jesus? Or does he actually believe Jesus was actually a spirit (a hologram movie) projected on earth and only appeared to be a fleshly creature and did not want to say that part out loud?
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:36 pm
by Secret Alias
The Man who Jacob wrestled with is said by Josephus to have been a "phantasm" (Antiqu. l. 1. c. 20. sect. 2) the same word Tertullian puts in the mouth of Marcion.
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:03 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:36 pm
The Man who Jacob wrestled with is said by Josephus to have been a "phantasm" (Antiqu. l. 1. c. 20. sect. 2) the same word Tertullian puts in the mouth of Marcion.
You say around the 38 minute mark,
38.08
But there was this notion that 'they' only saw the Ish covering 'his' person and disguising 'him.' And then afterwards 'he' allowed them, you know, to reveal who 'he' was. And, in that narrative, there is a line that says that, ‘we are sons,’ ah, ‘we're all sons of Ish.’
Who or what are the pronounces in the first two sentences referring to?
I'm not sure if that quote is related to the following which preceded it:
There's this consistent notion of miraculous births in the Pentateuch which is attributed to the fact that Ish means husband and not, in our sterile English sense of husband but, you know, sperm implanter ...
Some would argue that the Ish in in the Pentateuch was responsible for...the children
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:32 pm
by Giuseppe
I read:
the reason i call it the jewish myth of jesus is that i find what i'm proposing to be more compatible with judaism and samaritanism i believe it's easier to believe that the jewish and samaritan tradition of a man hidden in the pentateuch narrative i believe that's the german seed of the gospel rather than an actual historical figure who somehow fulfilled old testament prophecies about a christ
I wonder why Richard Carrier's view would have to be labelled as "the not-Jewish myth of Jesus" in opposition to Stephan Huller's view. He also thinks that Jesus started as a Jewish deity (angel, archangel, celestial Man, there is no ontological difference, frankly). Only, the
death and
resurrection of this Jewish deity are taken from Paganism around. Does Stephan think in the same way from this POV, about the origin of the death and resurrection of a celestial Man? Isn't he at least from this pov a proponent of a "Pagan" myth of Jesus?
Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:41 pm
by Secret Alias
Read Philo on Genesis 42:11.