Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

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ficino wrote:MH, surely you're not saying that the "origin and purpose" of the story we have in the gospels was to further a Hasmonean recovery of political and/or priestly power (and money) in the later 1st cent. CE. The gospel story (and Acts) doesn't serve the aims of Jewish priestly claimants.

Just when I'm about to lay off the Hasmonean Stuff that I see, ficino Posts...

I cannot speak for Maryhelena and she CERTAINLY doesn't want me Posting on here behalf but...Yes!, the origin and purpose of the Stories that we have are positively and directly aimed at furthering a Hasmonean Recovery of Political and/or Priestly power... Yes, Yes and Yes. [[Edit: What is implied here is that "In the later 1st century..." means that someone (Hint: The Romans.) took Stories they stole and rewrote them in the later 1 st century...]]

And there is no linkage to Antigonus in the gospels.

There certainly is [[See Edit Note below]]:

[18] The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
[19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

Here is Antigonus. You will refuse to accept this data point as either being coincidence or not even in a Universe of Possibilities but this goes much beyond what you say next:

There are only a few points of similarity. As Protagoras is made to say in Plato's dialogue of that name, "everything is like everything else in a certain way." The points of difference between the gospel Jesus and Antigonus outweigh the similarities. Whatever the agenda of the authors, it is not credible to propose that their agenda is to further the goals of Hasmonean descendents...

Sorry, but I don't see positive evidence for such speculations. They seem to fail on the parsimony front.

There are many points of similarity. Maryhelena limits herself to a generalized urging to study the Hasmoneans with particular interest in Antigonus. I contend that the NT is dripping with Hasmonean Glories, written in an aggressive style in opposition to the Roman Culture, contra Atwill, f'rinstance. That it appears hidden is a testimony to Transvaluation through the centuries but, "To Me...", it goes much beyond mere unrelated data points.

The Hasmonean Thesis is complex, crossed referenced and Quite Sound.

Similarly with the OP. One can invent a text in which Jesus cuts off the ear of the High Priest's servant. Sorry, Jay. I agree that the Gethsemane story has many sketchy elements. But when Jesus becomes the guy cutting off the ear, we're not discussing anything for which there is evidence.

JAY: After I calm down a bit, after my meds kick in and I get a good night's sleep, I need to reply to your very interesting Post. PLZ review your material that ties Mark to John and your Story of the Removal of Mary tied with the Story of the High Priests: Look what happens in John just after the cutting off of the ear.

Very fascinating!

CW

[[Edit Note: talk about a bad day! I did this once before and done near lik't to kill me. The original verses quoted above were not about Antigonus but Hyrcanus 2:

John 5: 2-3, 5 (RSV)

[2] Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Hebrew called Beth-za'tha, which has five porticoes.
[3] In these lay a multitude of invalids, blind, lame, paralyzed.
[5] One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years.

This gives the correct order: The Time Markers are:

Hannah the Prophetess (Queen Salome)
Death of Antigonus ("46 years to build this sanctuary...")
Death of Hyrcanus (Old Man by the Pool)
Woman Bent over 18 Years (Herod finishes the Temple and forces celebration of his ascension to the throne)
Jairus' Daughter and Woman with the 12 year Issue of Blood (Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE)]]

YIKES!
AS Joseph Heller said, "Something Happened".
I'll try to delete the extra Posts.
Sorry it all went Kaflooie...

CW

[the difference between clicking edit and quote boxes when trying to edit, Charles ??]
[clicking quote results in multiple similar posts]

Yeah...I guess.
Very tired. Sorry, everyone...

CW

BTW, Mr.MacSon: Before I saw ficino's good questions, I was gonna disagree with you on one of your points:
I believe that Queen Salome was in no shape or form Pro-Pharisee. In order to save the life of herself and her children, she asked Jannaeus what to do and he told her. (PS: It ain't too bad trying to save yourself if you become Queen...) This mistake by AJ led to the entrenchment of the Pharisees in the Bureaucracy to the detriment of all Rulers who followed, even Herod. The description of Herod's dinky may be Symbolic of the Pharisees. See also Jannaeus and Archelaus here.

THNX.

My objection to MH's activity is that she refuses to boil down her theory to a digestible sentence or two. All real things can be summed up in a sentence. For instance 'sandwich' - two pieces of bread with something in between, murder - 'deliberately causing the death of another human being.' In MH's theory there is no actual content. There's just some vague synthesis of 'real history' in the first century BCE and a 'myth' written by Hasmoneans in the first century CE which has political overtones that make no sense (at least to me). That's why I imagine she hasn't or can't written a book or even put together a website for this theory. It's like a stillborn child that she continues to wean hoping that it will come to life again in a better form but continues to lie lifeless against her bosom.

[the difference between clicking edit and quote boxes when trying to edit, Charles ??]

Not much difference in value for the forum either way.