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Desire vs desire: Did Paul's typology influence Luke?

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:42 am
by gryan
1 Cor 10:1-6
And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren,
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
and all the same spiritual food did eat,
and all the same spiritual drink did drink,
for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them,
and the rock was the Christ;
but in the most of them God was not well pleased,
for they were strewn in the wilderness,

and those things became types of us,
Ταῦτα δὲ τύποι ἡμῶν ἐγενήθησαν,

for our not desiring evil things,
τὸ μὴ εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἐπιθυμητὰς κακῶν,
just as they also desired.
καθὼς κἀκεῖνοι ἐπεθύμησαν.

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing (ποτήριον τῆς εὐλογίας) that we bless a participation (κοινωνία) in the blood of Christ? [And] is not the bread that we break a participation (κοινωνία) in the body of Christ?

Lk 22:15 (in a usage of Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα without parallel in other three Gospels)
and he said unto them,
καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς

'With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you
Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα τοῦτο τὸ πάσχα φαγεῖν μεθ’ ὑμῶν

before my suffering,
πρὸ τοῦ με παθεῖν·

---------

Did the typology of Paul influence the writer of Luke?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries ... ke-22.html

Paul's typology echoes Ps 106:14,

καὶ ἐπεθύμησαν ἐπιθυμίαν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, καὶ ἐπείρασαν τὸν θεὸν ἐν ἀνύδρῳ.
In the desert they desired with desire; in the wilderness they put God to the test.

But the the Luke quotation, model of Jesus desiring to eat the last supper seems to arise in answer to a logical question raised by the Paul typology:

Yes, we are not to desire evil things as they desired evil,
but what is it that is ok for us to desire with passion?

Re: Desire vs desire: Did Paul's typology influence Luke?

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:55 am
by lsayre
With various of creeds and dogma floating in the air it seems difficult to presume that one author directly influenced another. And there is the potential that a couple generations (or more) divide Paul's Epistles from Luke's Gospel. And the potential that Luke padded out Marcion's Gospel...

Re: Desire vs desire: Did Paul's typology influence Luke?

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:54 pm
by schillingklaus
None of the gospels or epistles form a literary unit, but they are all late and corrupted piecemeal of the chaotic sort. Influence goes always both ways and distributed over an extended era. Only simpletonists look for a one-way influence.

Re: Desire vs desire: Did Paul's typology influence Luke?

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:26 am
by lsayre
If it was a disciple of Marcion (the one named Lucanus, or Luke for short, as documented by Tertullian) who penned the Gospel attributed to Marcion, then due to Marcion's affiliation with Paul's Epistles there may be some vague Paul and Luke connection grounded within this avenue of approach.

Or if Marcion himself penned the earliest layer of this Gospel, it may be that this disciple later (sometime post Marcion's passing) brought it more in line with what eventually became our Canonical Gospel According to Luke. But in this again the chasm from Paul to Lucanus spans perhaps several generations.

Re: Desire vs desire: Did Paul's typology influence Luke?

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:35 am
by gryan
Ops! I accidentally pressed "edit" instead of "quote", and rewrote my OP as follows:
gryan wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:42 am 1 Cor 10:1-6
And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren,
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
and all the same spiritual food did eat,
and all the same spiritual drink did drink,
for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them,
and the rock was the Christ;
but in the most of them God was not well pleased,
for they were strewn in the wilderness,

and those things became types of us,
Ταῦτα δὲ τύποι ἡμῶν ἐγενήθησαν,

for our not desiring evil things,
τὸ μὴ εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἐπιθυμητὰς κακῶν,
just as they also desired.
καθὼς κἀκεῖνοι ἐπεθύμησαν.

1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing (ποτήριον τῆς εὐλογίας) that we bless a participation (κοινωνία) in the blood of Christ? [And] is not the bread that we break a participation (κοινωνία) in the body of Christ?

Lk 22:15 (in a usage of Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα without parallel in other three Gospels)
and he said unto them,
καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς

'With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you
Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα τοῦτο τὸ πάσχα φαγεῖν μεθ’ ὑμῶν

before my suffering,
πρὸ τοῦ με παθεῖν·

---------

Did the typology of Paul influence the writer of Luke?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries ... ke-22.html

Paul's typology echoes Ps 106:14,

καὶ ἐπεθύμησαν ἐπιθυμίαν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, καὶ ἐπείρασαν τὸν θεὸν ἐν ἀνύδρῳ.
In the desert they desired with desire; in the wilderness they put God to the test.

But in the Luke quotation, the model of Jesus desiring to eat the last supper seems to arise in answer to a logical question raised by the Paul typology:

Yes, we are not to desire evil things as they desired evil,
but what is it that is ok for us to desire with passion?